Unexpected Wiring on Ceiling Rose

[avguy]

Hi,

I'm not a sparky but am confident with wiring as work in the AV business and work with cabling a fair bit. Would appreciate some thoughts and advice

Looking to replace a ceiling rose with a new IKEA light fitting. The old wiring (pictured) looks to be strange as I would expect the switch live to be connected to the light fitting live, and all other wires connected to same colour (i.e. lives tied, neutrals tied and grounds tied). However I can see that there is two wires (red and black) connected to the light fitting live. Is this definitely incorrect or some type of series wiring? The lights were working fine and as expected.

Unfortunately all i did was take a picture before taking the ceiling rose off, and now am left with the three flex coming from ceiling. None of which are clearly labelled - one grey flex with brown/blue cores, two white flex with red/black cores. As you can see the grey flex was definitely not connected to the light fitting live so it is one (or both?) of the white flex that were connected, one of these has bed tape around the main white sheath (not the black core as expected) so it is probably this one.

I will do a continuity test to confirm which flex is from the switch. However once I've established this, do I also need to put the red wire from the other flex going to the light fitting live as well, as it was? Or will it be fine to wire up as I mention above, how it would be expected?

 

[Spoon]

Welcome to the forum mate.
It's hard to tell which cable does which.... but at a guess..... I would guess that the grey cable and white cable, without the red tape, are the feeds in and out. The white cable with the red tape is the switch live..
If you are happy doing basic testing then there is not a lot more you can do but test to see which cable does what and where they wire to.

or get an electrician in with his test kit, to sort it out.

 

[Pete999]

Welcome to the forum mate.
It's hard to tell which cable does which.... but at a guess..... I would guess that the grey cable and white cable, without the red tape, are the feeds in and out. The white cable with the red tape is the switch live..
If you are happy doing basic testing then there is not a lot more you can do but test to see which cable does what and where they wire to.

or get an electrician in with his test kit, to sort it out.

Avguy, you deffo need the services of a competent Electrician Mate, why ? because your interpretation of what is right and wrong are sadly, out of kilter, do yourself and any family members a favour and get someone to do the work who knows what they are doing, lesson don't mess with electrics if you are not competent, need I say more?

 

[Pete999]

Welcome to the forum mate.
It's hard to tell which cable does which.... but at a guess..... I would guess that the grey cable and white cable, without the red tape, are the feeds in and out. The white cable with the red tape is the switch live..
If you are happy doing basic testing then there is not a lot more you can do but test to see which cable does what and where they wire to.

or get an electrician in with his test kit, to sort it out.

You are to kind Spoon.

 

[Spoon]

You are to kind Spoon.

I try to be nice to everyone.....
OK... I'm either nice or a complete arse... If something is worth doing, it's worth doing well..

 

[Pete999]

I try to be nice to everyone.....
OK... I'm either nice or a complete arse... If something is worth doing, it's worth doing well..

As do I but it backfires some times, for what ever reason when you least expect it.

 

[Spoon]

As do I but it backfires some times, when you least expect it.

Depends on the mood of some people....

 

[avguy]

Funnily enough I came to the --DIY-- forum because I am confident with wires and electricity enough to change light fittings myself as i have done many times before, as I said and asking for advice from those who know more.

Telling me to get a professional in is fine if you can't answer my question which you didn't Pete. Thanks Spoon for being helpful.

I am happy to wire this up as i mentioned with the switch live connected to lamp live and everything else paralleled but why would there have been a live and a neutral connected to the lamp live? Presumably one was the switch live (the neutral but not labelled) so why would there have been a live from either the in or out connected?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

With some ikea fittings it is possible to install them over the existing rose base. the new light sits quite nicely over and around it, meaning all you need to do is connect some wires from the rose to new light.

 

[Pete999]

Funnily enough I came to the --DIY-- forum because I am confident with wires and electricity enough to change light fittings myself as i have done many times before, as I said and asking for advice from those who know more.

Telling me to get a professional in is fine if you can't answer my question which you didn't Pete. Thanks Spoon for being helpful.

I am happy to wire this up as i mentioned with the switch live connected to lamp live and everything else paralleled but why would there have been a live and a neutral connected to the lamp live? Presumably one was the switch live (the neutral but not labelled) so why would there have been a live from either the in or out connected?

I'm really sorry you feel like that avguy, which is precisely why I suggested you get professional help, not a slight on your capabilities, but in this instance, it would be wise for you to get help, for safeties sake, after all what would you feel like if your attempt at this work would cause danger to you and yours.

 

[snowhead]

so why would there have been a live from either the in or out connected?

Another light in the same room?

 

[telectrix]

looking at the pic. i would agree with snow. the black into light L is switched L from switch, and the Bn/Bl cable is going to a 2nd light . however, without test equipment, even a basic multimeter, can't be certain. but why is there Gn/Y tape on what seems to be a L conductor?

 

[Flanders]

Agree with The way that is wire there must be another light that operates from the same light switch , You will need continuity tester to confirm what cables do what ,By the way Pete is not having ago he is just concerned about your safety and others. As A guess It looks like the Blue and brown are you permanent live and neutral in one of the black and reds is the switch wire ( black being the switch wire) and the other black and red going to the next light, But Please test them out before turning it on and doing the bang test

 

[avguy]

Hi All

Thanks for your help

Pete i understand, i wouldn't want to do anything before being 100% sure I understand what's going on which is why i've come here before resorting to a callout.

I think I'm getting there now, there are two lights connected to one switch, hence the live cable from the other light is connected to the switch live also.

I am happy to buzz out the switch cable by connecting multimeter and turning switch on/off, but how do i test the other two cables exactly?

 

[Spoon]

I am happy to buzz out the switch cable by connecting multimeter and turning switch on/off, but how do i test the other two cables exactly?

Explaining how to do this without giving step-by-step instruction is hard, and its against forum rules to give out step-by-step instruction.

How The DIY Area Works And The Step By Step Guide Rule - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/how-the-diy-area-works-and-the-step-by-step-guide-rule.99209/

 

[Pete999]

Funnily enough I came to the --DIY-- forum because I am confident with wires and electricity enough to change light fittings myself as i have done many times before, as I said and asking for advice from those who know more.

Telling me to get a professional in is fine if you can't answer my question which you didn't Pete. Thanks Spoon for being helpful.

I am happy to wire this up as i mentioned with the switch live connected to lamp live and everything else paralleled but why would there have been a live and a neutral connected to the lamp live? Presumably one was the switch live (the neutral but not labelled) so why would there have been a live from either the in or out connected?

I could / can answer your question avguy but chose not to because I felt it was not within my scope of expertise, or remit because step by step instructions are outside the remit of the forum rules, I felt/ fell it's wrong to advise people who say they have the experience / Knowledge to do electrical work they feel they have the required knowledge to do so. My only reason for my response was one of safety.

 

[telectrix]

Hi All

Thanks for your help

Pete i understand, i wouldn't want to do anything before being 100% sure I understand what's going on which is why i've come here before resorting to a callout.

I think I'm getting there now, there are two lights connected to one switch, hence the live cable from the other light is connected to the switch live also.

I am happy to buzz out the switch cable by connecting multimeter and turning switch on/off, but how do i test the other two cables exactly?

confirm the switch wire as you say. then there's only 2 cables to ID. if you fit a bit of strip terminal block to them , you should then be able to power up and see which is the feed. then the remaining cable ( i'd think the Brown/Blue as a later addition) will be to the other light. obviously take care with checking when live.

 

[pyrotenax]

Get someone in who clearly knows what they are doing and knows the consequences of what can go wrong.

 

[rolyberkin]

confirm the switch wire as you say. then there's only 2 cables to ID. if you fit a bit of strip terminal block to them , you should then be able to power up and see which is the feed. then the remaining cable ( i'd think the Brown/Blue as a later addition) will be to the other light. obviously take care with checking when live.

Then all you need to do is prove continuity of the earth to your consumer unit, measure the circuit loop impedance, test the insulation resistance, test your RCD trip times, ensure the suppliers earth is within acceptable limits, check the bonding, then the jobs a goodun.