unusual foreign electrics

[TBarbados]

Hey all. This is my first post. I consider myself to be a competent DIYer. I worked for an electrician for two years and have a better than average grasp of UK domestic electrical installations. However, I now find myself in bulgaria and I'm about to rewire my own house but the system of supply is very different here. In the village where i live the supply comes in two wires, overhead on poles from a small sub station, through a meter on the pole and into my house to my cons unit. THERE IS NO EARTH CABLE. in lieu of any earth cable, what they do here is run a short wire from the earth connector to the neutral connector at each socket. this is accepted practice and done everywhere in the country. my question to you is, given the conditions described above, if i use standard 2.5mm twin and earth to wire my power circuits can i achieve the same effect if i simply bridge between the earth bar and the neutral bar in the cons unit? i read somewhere that with this system, multiple connections to neutral are required in case of a broken neutral but it's all quite confusing and i'm just not sure how to proceed at the moment. i'm fully aware that i will need to provide a proper earth using a rod and whatnot out in the garden at some point but i just need a quick fix for the time being as i am currently (no pun intended) living without electricity and right now i cant afford the extra cash to provide what we would consider a 'correct' earthing arrangement. any help would be greatly appreciated. sorry for the wall of post but it seems this BB doesn't recognise line breaks :/

 

[Engineer54]

Rather you than me!! You ''NEED'' a good earth rod installation, end of!!! Funds may well be scarce, but in all honesty, you and your families safety should be put first in this instance. There is no way i would be shorting out every earth and neutral connection at every power outlet etc.... You'll also need an RCD device, at the very least as a starter, one that protects the whole installation with a 30mA protection level.

What sort of soil type are we talking about on your property??

 

[Knobhead]

I think you should have used “Suicidal foreign electrics” as a title. The danger of a failed neutral connection just don’t bear thinking about.
Go with E54’s recommendations.

 

[bugsy]

If they bridge the earth and neutral you won't be installing a RCD,

Wire as TT installation

 

[TaffyDuck]

10 years ago I went as part of a team that did up a small Romanian orphanage. |It was common practice there too. We installed a TT system via an earthing plate RCD protection if memory serves me right it had 100mA main isolator and 30mA covering everything but the lights.
I heard some time later that they had taken the RCDs out and dissed off the earth because they didnt understand it. Was bonkers place. If i ever go back to that part of the world only using firewood and candles.

 

[Marvo]

I've seen a similar system use in Central African countries and it gives me the heebie jeebies just looking at it.

As suggested I would install an earth rod and a convincing one at that. Bond the N-E at the point of supply entry and use 30mA RCD protection in the distribution box at least for the plug circuits which I'm guessing will be 20Amp radials using 2.5 t&e.

 

[TBarbados]

many thanks for the replies and expressions of concern guys. i understand your fears and i was the same when i first arrived here. i just couldn't believe what passed for an electrical installation in this country. i've been in 20 or so homes here in the village and in every one there has been no earth, no sign of an RCD and many times not even a proper consumer unit (just a meter and a couple of big old ceramic fuses attached to a bit of wood panelling!) as it goes though, we're not all dying of electrocution and out of the native electricians i've spoken to non of them can see why i have a problem! so, hypothetically; If i have no way to properly earth the property and i have no access to an RCD. But i need to to power my tools, kettle, laptop etc while staying here and renovating. given that they are your only choices would you; a) create a 20A redial using 2.5 twin cable wiring each individual socket earth to neutral or; b) create a 20A redial using 2.5 twin and earth cable, and bridging across the earth and neutral bars in the cons unit. or c) the choices above are in effect the same so it doesn't matter. you're only allowed to choose a), b) or c).on a side note, i am alone with no family here. i apologise if this is a bit difficult to read. i cant seem to apply any line breaks and so its a bit of a mess.

 

[Marvo]

It's like saying if you're standing in a barrel of vomit up to your chin and someone throws a bucket of snot at your head....do you duck into the vomit or take the snot?

Either way with your options if there's a fault on the supply neutral the chassis of all your appliances become live. I'm still going to recommend an earth rod, it's not expensive and will take a couple of hours to install. Then bond earth and N at the first possible point. Effectively this is a TT system so I'd be looking for 10ohm (max20ohm) rod impedance. If you have metal incoming water main you can even bond to this as well.

 

[La Poste]

I'm still going to recommend an earth rod, it's not expensive and will take a couple of hours to install. Then bond earth and N at the first possible point. Effectively this is a TT system

Why bond earth and neutral within the property?
Surely with a TT the idea is to keep the earth and neutral separate?

 

[Engineer54]

Why bond earth and neutral within the property?
Surely with a TT the idea is to keep the earth and neutral separate?

Think about it, Marvo stated first possible point which i take, as at the origin, eg... at the intake position!!

For Barbados,

No-one here is going to give you the go ahead to use any of your hazardous choices. You've been told what you need to do, for the safest minimal earthing arrangement for your home in the circumstances. Just because the locals use this potentially dangerous approach doesn't mean it's a good idea, ...It isn't!! It's basically up to you what your going to do not us. But please don't try substantiating to us, what these locals do as being safe or acceptable, i'm sure you know yourself it's neither, or you wouldn't have asked here in the first place...

 

[TBarbados]

ok. thanks for the advice guys. much appreciated. i'll do the earthing as Marvo suggests. engineer54, perhaps you need to go find an anger management class somewhere m8, i really didn't appreciate your tone. and FYI 'substantiating to us, what these locals do...' is an utterly meaningless phrase. if your gonna use the big words, i suggest you learn how first. to everyone else who gave non-judgemental, fury free advice, my thanks again.

 

[Marvo]

All the advice given is solid and in the interest of safety but I think this thread has run its useful course.

If there's anything else you'd like assistance with you're welcome to start a new thread.

 

[Engineer54]

ok. thanks for the advice guys. much appreciated. i'll do the earthing as Marvo suggests. engineer54, perhaps you need to go find an anger management class somewhere m8, i really didn't appreciate your tone. and FYI 'substantiating to us, what these locals do...' is an utterly meaningless phrase. if your gonna use the big words, i suggest you learn how first. to everyone else who gave non-judgemental, fury free advice, my thanks again.

What ''fury'' are you talking about here?? You have been given good advice by myself and others. You are the one telling us what the locals do, and asking which way to go ...based on how the locals do things. so where is the totally meaningless aspect your talking about??

I speak as i see things, if that upsets you, my apologies....

 

[La Poste]

Think about it, Marvo stated first possible point which i take, as at the origin, eg... at the intake position!!

Excuse my lack of knowledge but what about a lost supply neutral, I think that would still elevate the voltage on the metal work in the premises?

Why not just have a decent rod and not bond the earth and neutral?
What would be wrong with that?

I am assuming that the supply transformer has a rod itself, you know from the start point into the ground, does this supply transformer have no rod?

Is that a stupid question?

 

[Engineer54]

Excuse my lack of knowledge but what about a lost supply neutral, I think that would still elevate the voltage on the metal work in the premises?

Why not just have a decent rod and not bond the earth and neutral?
What would be wrong with that?

I am assuming that the supply transformer has a rod itself, you know from the start point into the ground, does this supply transformer have no rod?

Is that a stupid question?

No, not at all a stupid question. I think what Marvo was thinking about, is if the Ra was on the high side to provide a decent enough earth fault protection, earth the neutral at the intake and use as a TNC-S...

As you say, far better to have the TT rod(s) as a stand alone earthing system... just depends what type of ground conditions he will be encountering and how much cash he wants to invest in his installations safety. Too many unknowns here, for example if he has a raft foundation to his property it may be worth his time breaking out some concrete and picking up the re-bar, for a Ufer earth. connecting/linking that to a deepish earth rod could well sort him out as far as giving him a decent earth... lol!!

Who knows what the earthing arrangement is at the local distribution TX