UK What rate am I qualified for/should be seeking having done 2365 lvl 2/3 and 18th Edition?

[man2964]

I'm facing a dilemma and any advice would be hugly appreciated. I'm transitioning from the military into becoming an electrician. I've completed 2365 level 2, awaiting the results of level 3, have 18th Edition and am enrolled on the Level 3 NVQ already.

The dilemma I'm facing is: I've been offered a job by a reputable firm in the East Mids at £11.50 an hour which I believe is a Stage 4 apprentice. I understand why I've been offered this however I believe I'm 'technically' qualified for more. What level should I be looking at as from what I've looked at (using the JIB rates that they've offered me), I think I'm able to get at least the stage 2 electrician (rather than apprentice). While I appreciate I've got no real on the job experience surely the fact I've managed to complete these courses to a high standard and do the 18th shows my ability to understand the work/requirements.

On these JIB rates also for providing your own transport you get a higher rate does this mean you don't get an allowance per mile (22p from what I've read?).

Once again any help/advice is appreciated. I understand where the company is coming from however I've done these courses, proven my ability to digest and understand the knowledge/ requirements.

Thanks!

 

[nicebutdim]

The vast majority of your learning will take place on site. Clearly you are motivated and have a reasonable grounding in theory, but I wouldn't set my sights to high, until able to prove ability.

Ultimately you'll be employed to make the company money - if you can prove your worth and let them see you as an asset, it's likely they'll be keen to keep you on. What they're unlikely to do is offer the going rate to an unknown quantity, with no experience - doing so would cause uproar among existing workers.

As for qualifications? Most employers will consider NVQ3 and completed AM2 to be the bare minimum for any newly trained electrician. At this point, you're a trainee.


Edit: The above seems to read quite harshly, which wasn't my intention (I'm an adult apprentice). Trying to think of some way to clarify what I meant and the best that comes to mind is a simple analogy... would you consider someone who had completed most of the knowledge, but who had never driven a car or held a license, to be a suitable candidate for driving a London taxi?

 

[man2964]

The vast majority of your learning will take place on site. Clearly you are motivated and have a reasonable grounding in theory, but I wouldn't set my sights to high, until able to prove ability.

Ultimately you'll be employed to make the company money - if you can prove your worth and let them see you as an asset, it's likely they'll be keen to keep you on. What they're unlikely to do is offer the going rate to an unknown quantity, with no experience - doing so would cause uproar among existing workers.

As for qualifications? Most employers will consider NVQ3 and completed AM2 to be the bare minimum for any newly trained electrician. At this point, you're a trainee.

Cheers for the speedy reply! This I understand, learning on the job was the expected, not being fully qualified until I've done my NVQ and AM2 and certainly understand the causing uproar amounts employees. However, my question to that is - JIB have 4 stages of apprenticeship up to stage 4 on £11.50. I however have completed the courses listed so I don't have to be classed as an apprentice and am qualified to a level it would take an apprentice considerably longer to reach. JIB do have Stage 1 electrical and stage 2 electrical trainee guidelines/rates - would this not be more in keeping with my qualifications to date as in a better fit? As for causing uproar JIB have set the guidance it's not me if that's what I'm qualified/JIB think I'm worth I'll certainly push for it!

 

[man2964]

The vast majority of your learning will take place on site. Clearly you are motivated and have a reasonable grounding in theory, but I wouldn't set my sights to high, until able to prove ability.

Ultimately you'll be employed to make the company money - if you can prove your worth and let them see you as an asset, it's likely they'll be keen to keep you on. What they're unlikely to do is offer the going rate to an unknown quantity, with no experience - doing so would cause uproar among existing workers.

As for qualifications? Most employers will consider NVQ3 and completed AM2 to be the bare minimum for any newly trained electrician. At this point, you're a trainee.


Edit: The above seems to read quite harshly, which wasn't my intention (I'm an adult apprentice). Trying to think of some way to clarify what I meant and the best that comes to mind is a simple analogy... would you consider someone who had completed most of the knowledge, but who had never driven a car or held a license, to be a suitable candidate for driving a London taxi?

Again I get your analogy but to counter that the MOD send you for your CAT B car license and immediately after passing put you into your C + E license so you go from zero to hero in the space of a month or two!

 

[nicebutdim]

Cheers for the speedy reply! This I understand, learning on the job was the expected, not being fully qualified until I've done my NVQ and AM2 and certainly understand the causing uproar amounts employees. However, my question to that is - JIB have 4 stages of apprenticeship up to stage 4 on £11.50. I however have completed the courses listed so I don't have to be classed as an apprentice and am qualified to a level it would take an apprentice considerably longer to reach. JIB do have Stage 1 electrical and stage 2 electrical trainee guidelines/rates - would this not be more in keeping with my qualifications to date as in a better fit? As for causing uproar JIB have set the guidance it's not me if that's what I'm qualified/JIB think I'm worth I'll certainly push for it!

I get where you're coming from, but would point out that apprentices spend considerably more time on site than in a classroom.

I have next to no knowledge of JIB, but do know they have four stages for apprentices. Without any practical experience, I can not see how you would be considered a stage 4 apprentice. Unless you're wanting to find work with a JIB registered company, these gradings will be of little relevance.

Honestly, I'd be more inclined to focus on gaining experience, than fighting over pay at this stage - if you're over the living wage, I'd consider the pay acceptable.

 

[man2964]

I get where you're coming from, but would point out that apprentices spend considerably more time on site than in a classroom.

I have next to no knowledge of JIB, but do know they have four stages for apprentices. Without any practical experience, I can not see how you would be considered a stage 4 apprentice. Unless you're wanting to find work with a JIB registered company, these gradings will be of little relevance.

Honestly, I'd be more inclined to focus on gaining experience, than fighting over pay at this stage - if you're over the living wage, I'd consider the pay acceptable.

That's fair enough cheers for the advice! Experience is definitely what I need right now ever I've not signed anything yet so there's always chance for negotiation!

 

[Aaron b]

Is the company a jib company? There's other benefits to the jib so it's more of a package than just a rate. The JIB rates seem too low for qualified sparks at the moment I used to think they were fair, especially since they have changed the way travel and millage is paid.

It's not easy to get apprenticeships so I'd be inclined to take it and prove yourself.

 

[Midwest]

Have you asked your potential employer, why they have offered this rate? I take it they are not offering any further training, and is this for a probationary period?

I work in maintenance for a large international employer, and that is a similar rate that they offer for our maintenance assistants. And they wonder why the job role has been vacant for the last year.

 

[man2964]

Is the company a jib company? There's other benefits to the jib so it's more of a package than just a rate. The JIB rates seem too low for qualified sparks at the moment I used to think they were fair, especially since they have changed the way travel and millage is paid.

It's not easy to get apprenticeships so I'd be inclined to take it and prove yourself.

Hi pal, yeah it's a JIB company, I've done some research into JIB (thought I'd be on £13 something an hour so obviously going about it wrong) but what other benefits do they offer? The rates do seem low! They've given me the stage 4 apprentice level which I understand however do think the stage 1 trainee is more in keeping with the quals I've got!

 

[man2964]

Have you asked your potential employer, why they have offered this rate? I take it they are not offering any further training, and is this for a probationary period?

I work in maintenance for a large international employer, and that is a similar rate that they offer for our maintenance assistants. And they wonder why the job role has been vacant for the last year.

Hi Midwest, yeah I have the reason they used was that they can't be putting me on more than a stage 4 apprentice as it would cause people to essentially moan. I understand that not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to do the 2365 courses etc or wants to go that was due to cost but I have which done them which from what I can infer puts me on at least stage one electrical trainee?

What's your thoughts on it?

 

[Aaron b]

Hi pal, yeah it's a JIB company, I've done some research into JIB (thought I'd be on £13 something an hour so obviously going about it wrong) but what other benefits do they offer? The rates do seem low! They've given me the stage 4 apprentice level which I understand however do think the stage 1 trainee is more in keeping with the quals I've got!

They have a handbook that sets out all procedures and benefits are all set by the jib. You will get pay rises as you satisfy the grades and every couple of years when the new handbook comes out.

I'd give it a couple of months and ask what you need to do to satisfy the next grade. If you have no site experience and need to collect evidence for a portfolio I don't think you can argue that your not an apprentice.

 

[man2964]

They have a handbook that sets out all procedures and benefits are all set by the jib. You will get pay rises as you satisfy the grades and every couple of years when the new handbook comes out.

I'd give it a couple of months and ask what you need to do to satisfy the next grade. If you have no site experience and need to collect evidence for a portfolio I don't think you can argue that your not an apprentice.

I get what you're saying, if I've satisfied the grades/requirements for stage 1 trainee electrician now, I don't want to turn finally move onto it in so many months time if that makes sense? I'll pose the question before I sign anything!

 

[Midwest]

Hi Midwest, yeah I have the reason they used was that they can't be putting me on more than a stage 4 apprentice as it would cause people to essentially moan. I understand that not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to do the 2365 courses etc or wants to go that was due to cost but I have which done them which from what I can infer puts me on at least stage one electrical trainee?

What's your thoughts on it?

As said, have you actually asked why that payrate, and what you can expect in increments as you gain experience in their eyes. And get it in writing. I would envisage, you would want a full approved or electricians rate eventually?

 

[man2964]

As said, have you actually asked why that payrate, and what you can expect in increments as you gain experience in their eyes. And get it in writing. I would envisage, you would want a full approved or electricians rate eventually?

Yes and no, they gave their reason for it (stage 4 apprentice and can't pay me more as it will cause issues) so I'm going to go back and see if I can discuss about Stage 1 trainee electrician as theres that rate provided for JIB for a reason! Like Ive said, I've taken it upon myself to do these courses etc so I'm not classed as an apprentice blah blah blah.

Getting the incremental increase in writing is a good idea thanks, I don't however want to sell myself short and say I'll get a pay rise in a year when I could have earned it in 6 months if that makes sense?

Yes correct, NVQ + AM2 and 2391 is the end goal!

 

[Midwest]

Yes and no, they gave their reason for it (stage 4 apprentice and can't pay me more as it will cause issues) so I'm going to go back and see if I can discuss about Stage 1 trainee electrician as theres that rate provided for JIB for a reason! Like Ive said, I've taken it upon myself to do these courses etc so I'm not classed as an apprentice blah blah blah.

Getting the incremental increase in writing is a good idea thanks, I don't however want to sell myself short and say I'll get a pay rise in a year when I could have earned it in 6 months if that makes sense?

Yes correct, NVQ + AM2 and 2391 is the end goal!

I don’t think it harms anything in asking, certainly looking at the future with them, could show a long term commitment. Have you seen what other companies would offer?

Good luck by the way.

 

[man2964]

I don’t think it harms anything in asking, certainly looking at the future with them, could show a long term commitment. Have you seen what other companies would offer?

Good luck by the way.

I've had a few interviews, nothing came of one (got told I'd be a self employed contactor so wasn't too interested) and one wanted an unpaid trial period and was too far away anyway so haven't got anything to guage it off! The company seems really good and the people I've met are really nice too so that's a bonus!

 

[123]

Is the JIB rate any use at present? They where agreed upon about 2 years ago...a heck of a lot has happened in the time since then.

Stage 4 apprentice - At college £11.30 ph, on site £12.45 ph.
Own transport electrician £16.73 ph. Approved spark £18.14
Own transport trainee - Stage 1 £13.43 ph, Stage 2 £15.08 ph, Stage 3 £15.90 ph.

In comparison entry level job at Lidl £10.90 ph...JIB rates look shyte.

 

[man2964]

Is the JIB rate any use at present? They where agreed upon about 2 years ago...a heck of a lot has happened in the time since then.

Stage 4 apprentice - At college £11.30 ph, on site £12.45 ph.
Own transport electrician £16.73 ph. Approved spark £18.14
Own transport trainee - Stage 1 £13.43 ph, Stage 2 £15.08 ph, Stage 3 £15.90 ph.

In comparison entry level job at Lidl £10.90 ph...JIB rates look shyte.

Cheers 123, that's what I've been comparing it too, I know it's not the same as Im working towards a cause but I can stack shelves for more money!!

As I've said to the people above I'm trying to work out whether a trainee stage on on £13 something is more applicable than a stage 4 apprentice on £11 something an hour if that makes sense? And what would be the best way of addressing this/putting that point forward. Like I've said, self funded courses, vehicle, kit and I'm not (no disrespect to) a 17 year old fresh from school. I've proven my ability to time keep, thoroughness, reliability etc etc as well as my aptitude for picking up the required knowledge!

 

[nicebutdim]

I wouldn't overthink this - training is a means to an end, so I'd be inclined to keep my head down and get on with it. You've got a good headstart with theory, but that's of no practical use without experience.

Take what you can get and learn. If an employer values your work and the ethic beind it, they'll ensure you're paid well enough to stay after training. It doesn't matter how much you know, you're still an unknown quantity to any potential employer. If you ask for too much, why wouldn't they just pay a bit more and get someone who doesn't need training?

I'd be concerned about employing a trainee who seemed to think they were doing me a favour by coming to be trained by my workers.

 

[man2964]

I wouldn't overthink this - training is a means to an end, so I'd be inclined to keep my head down and get on with it. You've got a good headstart with theory, but that's of no practical use without experience.

Take what you can get and learn. If an employer values your work and the ethic beind it, they'll ensure you're paid well enough to stay after training. It doesn't matter how much you know, you're still an unknown quantity to any potential employer. If you ask for too much, why wouldn't they just pay a bit more and get someone who doesn't need training?

I'd be concerned about employing a trainee who seemed to think they were doing me a favour by coming to be trained by my workers.

That makes sense, it's the reality I suppose. Like you said, a means to an end and if they don't want to budge then I understand that!