Discuss What the eye's can't see? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

ipf

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Heard one on Wednesday....from someone involved.
An 85 years old almost totally BLIND lady, whilst not requesting it, had a Test and Inspection carried out by someone representing the housing association who own her property.
Later she entered her bathroom and attempted to switch on the shower, only to receive a quite nasty electric shock. Luckily, she wasn't badly injured and recovered quickly.
She called her daughter, who arrived shortly afterwards. Her daughter found the shower control unit open, the lid separated in the room. She took photos and got onto the association.
The situation is ongoing.
As far as I'm concerned, things are getting beyond belief.
By the way, the lady expressed concern that the bloke responsible might loose his job......old school, thinking of others, eh!
 
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buzzlightyear

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some times when under pressure to finish a job some times we forget the things that you are supported be doing. like putting a lid on a shower .
 

ashrow

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The person that failed at their job should be taken through every action available.
At least it would put in place a plan to prevent further mistakes or even put them on what is generally an personal improvement plan where further training is given.
Personally they left the installation in a worse condition and should not be doing testing at all
 

James

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If she had died from that oversight because they were busy, could be looking at jail time.

We all work in an industry where negligence and poor workmanship can put peoples lives at risk.

I do not accept the comment that we all make mistakes when we are busy.

We can all make mistakes, we are human after all. However a quick walk round at the end of a job is hardly going to make the difference between hitting target and failing.
You might even find the odd screwdriver that you forgot about.

It is our job to be thorough and it is down to us to ensure the safety of the people in the buildings we work on. Don’t forget that if there is a fatal shock, the buck might stop at YOU.

Edit, that was not meant to offend you buzz. But have a think about it?
 

ipf

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Edit, that was not meant to offend you buzz. But have a think about it?
James......I think buzz might just have a little bit of tongue in his cheek, with his comment.;)
''like putting a lid on a shower''.....
 

James

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I wrote it honestly, then Back read it and re read buzz post and just thought I would add the note. As it was not my intention to offend or start an argument.
P.s. you can’t put a lid on a shower, best you can do is use an umbrella!!!
 

ipf

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I wrote it honestly, then Back read it and re read buzz post and just thought I would add the note. As it was not my intention to offend or start an argument.
P.s. you can’t put a lid on a shower, best you can do is use an umbrella!!!
Read his previous post #2 :)
 

Strima

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I'd put that as a near miss and report it to HSE, if she received any injuries then the spark would be done for I think.
That’s not a near miss. She received a shock so it’s an incident.
 

littlespark

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This could run and run....
If the electrician was negligent, then he’ll be at fault.
If the “electrician” was not suitably qualified, then his boss will be in trouble too for sending him to do the job in the first place.
If his boss was under pressure to get things done whatever cost then his boss could be in trouble...

Can we blame it on Boris now and save a bit of time.;)
 
I can see the scenario. Cover off shower, loop test we then automatically isolate and refit shower. Maybe in this case, loop test and phone rings or text comes through. What's most important, get side tracked and attend to phone, cover happily stays laying about and forgotten.
 
I can see the scenario. Cover off shower, loop test we then automatically isolate and refit shower. Maybe in this case, loop test and phone rings or text comes through. What's most important, get side tracked and attend to phone, cover happily stays laying about and forgotten.
Yep, most likely the case, but no excuse. It could have been a whole lot worse than "a nasty shock" in this particular scenario.
 
Couldn't agree more one of the reasons mobiles are banned from many high risk environments. I always do a walk around after finishing a job to ensure all is as it should be it can happen to the best of us.
 

Lister1987

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That’s not a near miss. She received a shock so it’s an incident.
I could be rusty but RIDDOR 2013 doesn't list electric shock as reportable?

"Accidents to members of the public or others who are not at work must be reported if they result in an injury and the person is taken directly from the scene of the accident to hospital for treatment to that injury. Examinations and diagnostic tests do not constitute ‘treatment’ in such circumstances"
 
I work in the oil industry and an electrocution would be a serious incident and the contractor responsible hauled over the coals big time. It would be labelled a HIPO - unplanned HSE incident or near-miss that has the potential severity to cause permanent disability or death
 

Dan

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Heard one on Wednesday....from someone involved.
An 85 years old almost totally BLIND lady, whilst not requesting it, had a Test and Inspection carried out by someone representing the housing association who own her property.
Later she entered her bathroom and attempted to switch on the shower, only to receive a quite nasty electric shock. Luckily, she wasn't badly injured and recovered quickly.
She called her daughter, who arrived shortly afterwards. Her daughter found the shower control unit open, the lid separated in the room. She took photos and got onto the association.
The situation is ongoing.
As far as I'm concerned, things are getting beyond belief.
By the way, the lady expressed concern that the bloke responsible might loose his job......old school, thinking of others, eh!
The sod should be fined not just lose his job!!
 

Strima

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I could be rusty but RIDDOR 2013 doesn't list electric shock as reportable?

"Accidents to members of the public or others who are not at work must be reported if they result in an injury and the person is taken directly from the scene of the accident to hospital for treatment to that injury. Examinations and diagnostic tests do not constitute ‘treatment’ in such circumstances"
I didn't say it was reportable under RIDDOR.
 

sparks1234

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A lot of people on here seem to be just perfect, we are all human and we all make mistakes, I recently left a job and woke in the middle of the night wondering if the dis board cover had been reinstated after testing, I went back in to London very very early to check and happily it was but it could easily have not been. Its a nasty situation but as I said, we all make mistakes
 

ipf

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I work in the oil industry and an electrocution would be a serious incident and the contractor responsible hauled over the coals big time. It would be labelled a HIPO - unplanned HSE incident or near-miss that has the potential severity to cause permanent disability or death
It would in whatever environment you live or work.
Suffering a mains electric shock, of any sort, is a serious incident for sure, but it is not an electrocution...….now that is gravely serious.
 

bill01803

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If they had done a r1+ r2 test and calculated the Zs the lid would not of been left off as you would have to remove their test lead or wonder why the breaker tripped.
 

littlespark

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In a perfect world... no one would make mistakes.

It was a combination of things here... The electrician forgot to replace the cover... for whatever reason. The old lady was partially sighted... if she had better vision, or someone caring for her doing everyday things like having a shower.. she would have seen the cover missing, reported it, and that would have been a near miss.

There is little point now slating or defending the spark in question.... There are policy's in place that should stop this from happening... but no policy is perfect.
Luckily, there was not a fatality, but things could have been so much different.
Maybe new policies will be put in place... such as 2 man teams, or extra tests developed to ensure everything is double checked before leaving a property.... Such as a minute walk round before leaving, as suggested.

I wouldn't like the excuse "everybody can make mistakes" if i'm on a bed awaiting brain surgery!
 

ipf

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In a perfect world... no one would make mistakes.

It was a combination of things here... The electrician forgot to replace the cover... for whatever reason. The old lady was partially sighted... if she had better vision, or someone caring for her doing everyday things like having a shower.. she would have seen the cover missing, reported it, and that would have been a near miss.

There is little point now slating or defending the spark in question.... There are policy's in place that should stop this from happening... but no policy is perfect.
Luckily, there was not a fatality, but things could have been so much different.
Maybe new policies will be put in place... such as 2 man teams, or extra tests developed to ensure everything is double checked before leaving a property.... Such as a minute walk round before leaving, as suggested.

I wouldn't like the excuse "everybody can make mistakes" if i'm on a bed awaiting brain surgery!
There are all sorts of situations and reasons for such problems BUT, when it all comes down to it, the vast majority of persons, be they electricians, other trades people or even the general public, WOULD have the basic common sense to avoid such a ridiculous situation.
No way are excuses, such as cases of forgetfulness or tight time scales, viable.
 
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Des 56

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The electrician scored a own goal
We are also a player in the same game and each and every one of us is capable of messing up

The nature of our game means that messing up can cause terrible tragedy
I am not trying to excuse what happened just pointing out none of us are infallible
 

KennyKen

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I work in the oil industry and an electrocution would be a serious incident and the contractor responsible hauled over the coals big time. It would be labelled a HIPO - unplanned HSE incident or near-miss that has the potential severity to cause permanent disability or death

Me 2, Also work in Oil & Gas. Major investigation if something like this happened.
 
The most shocking thing about this story is that the electrician actually did any testing. The guys working for housing association are usually rushed, doing multiple properties a day.
 

ipf

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Good reason to leave phone on silent or in van during such works when high concentration is required.
If it takes silencing a phone...….or HIGH concentration to be able to perform such acts of basic common sense, we are already at the base of the spiral.
 
The lid can just as easily be left off after dead testing as after live testing.
A lot of people on here seem to be just perfect, we are all human and we all make mistakes, I recently left a job and woke in the middle of the night wondering if the dis board cover had been reinstated after testing, I went back in to London very very early to check and happily it was but it could easily have not been. Its a nasty situation but as I said, we all make mistakes
No one is perfect! You thought you had made a mistake and it played on your mind so much that you had the good sense to go back and check. We have all been there to a certain degree.
But in this scenario I can't help thinking (possibly wrongly) that the lid was left off cause the spark or mate forgot because they weren't thorough enough to just have a quick check round in each room before they left. I do this by habit even if its just to make sure I have left anything behind like tools etc.. It takes minutes in a domestic property to do this!

Imagine going to have some tyres fitted to your car, you are waiting patiently while the person removes all the wheels, returns them to the car with new tyres, then sends you on your way. Only during the wheel tightening the person doing it gets distracted and forgets to properly tighten one wheel. You are sent on your way, jump on the motorway safe in the knowledge that you have 4 spanking new tyres, happy days. You get up to 70 mph (wink wink) and the un-tightened wheel comes off, you lose control crash and people die as a result.

We all make mistakes, but some are inexcusable in my eyes, sorry but this is my opinion and I feel strongly about it. I have been witness to a fatal accident because someone "just made a mistake" well yeah and cause they were irresponsible someone tragically lost their life. A loss that could and should have been avoided if the person responsible had " just done" their job properly.
 
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But in this scenario I can't help thinking (possibly wrongly) that the lid was left off cause the spark or mate forgot because they weren't thorough enough to just have a quick check round in each room before they left. I do this by habit even if its just to make sure I have left anything behind like tools etc.. It takes minutes in a domestic property to do this!
That for me is the main takeaway lesson. You should always re-check the rooms you have worked in and anything you have worked on before leaving a job (or part of a job). Personally I have found in the past that, when I am a new to a particular task, a proforma check list that you complete for every job helps to serve as a reminder, and as the different checks/re-checks become part of my routine, I can sometimes drop the formal 'checkbox' approach because the precautions become part of my cultural habits.

Source URL: What the eye's can't see? - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/what-the-eyes-cant-see.180056/
Imagine going to have some tyres fitted to your car, you are waiting patiently while the person removes all the wheels, returns them to the car with new tyres, then sends you on your way. Only during the wheel tightening the person doing it gets distracted and forgets to properly tighten one wheel. You are sent on your way, jump on the motorway safe in the knowledge that you have 4 spanking new tyres, happy days. You get up to 70 mph (wink wink) and the un-tightened wheel comes off, you lose control crash and people die as a result.
I know of just such an incident, in which wheels were not tightened on a pick-up. This was a reliable/reputable garage. After about 40 miles, one of them came off at speed and impacted the side of a car about 50 yards away. Fortunately no injuries, but it demonstrates that basic mistakes are made even by experienced people.

The key for me [I speak here as a student] is to be always alert about people and situations and minimise assumptions. Never assume competence in others. Always check things. Don't become complacent about your own competence - keep learning and improving. Check and double-check everything.
 
...forgets to properly tighten one wheel. You are sent on your way, ... the un-tightened wheel comes off
Happened to me, many years ago. Fortunately not going very fast and we stopped before the wheel came off.

To me, if you know that the customer is disabled then the standard of care that you owe that customer becomes much higher.
 

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