EICR - Help on my Request for Electrical Safety Alternatives and Quotes

[Lucio de Godoy]

Good morning,

We have a two-bedroom flat that my wife and I rent out to supplement our income. Following the recent EICR, several issues categorised as C1, C2, and C3 were identified.

I've tries to discuss alternatives with the engineer, particularly concerning the replacement of the consumer unit (CU) due to its high cost. However, I'm not satisfied with the options provided. Could you please share your thoughts on achieving safety compliance without replacing the CU, and costing a small fortune?

On the loose box above the CU issue, it has a bit of play, minor, it is not hanging of the wall!

Quotes asked:

1. Engineer to provide a quote for removing the door contactor switch to address the C1 issue?
2. What would be the cost for securing the loose box above the CU?

Here are my specific questions:

1. Could the engineer quote for replacing the three B16 MCBs with B10s?
2. Is it possible for the engineer to group the two ring circuits and isolate the radial circuit, or group it with a B20 circuit? Please provide a quote for this work.
3. Will the proposed solutions from points 1 to 4 ensure compliance and enable the issuance of an EICR?

Ultimately, I'm looking to resolve these issues without needing to replace the CU. I appreciate your guidance on this matter.
Please see the PDF as it includes pictures.

Thank you for your assistance.

Lucio

 

[westward10]

Item 4 is questionable. If the radial only serves a single point it is fine but if multiple points it needs addressing.

 

[Lucio de Godoy]

Item 4 is questionable. If the radial only serves a single point it is fine but if multiple points it needs addressing.

Hi, Thank you for your reply, can it be combined into another circuit of same capacity/demand?

 

[westward10]

Hi, Thank you for your reply, can it be combined into another circuit of same capacity/demand?

Not something I would do. What does the radial feed?

 

[westward10]

They failed to note you have type AC RCDs which are now generally deemed unsuitable and the RCD test notice no longer complies.

 

[UNG]

That EICR lacks a lot of detail and bears little or no resemblance to the model forms in BS7671
Where are the Installation details, circuit test results and all the other information that a proper EICR details
Looks like the contractor is big on the gloss but lacks the substance

 

[DPG]

Is that an EICR or a sparky's photo album?

 

[westward10]

That is probably a snap shot of the Report.

 

[Lucio de Godoy]

Hi All;

Thank you for your comments, attached is the full report. I had taken a picture of the actual report for brevity.

Many thanks

Lucio

 

[LukeD]

Hi All;

Thank you for your comments, attached is the full report. I had taken a picture of the actual report for brevity.

Many thanks

Lucio

There are some valid issues . But the whole EICR "game" is open to so much abuse as they can almost do what they want and many do as they want to make money from the work required . It seems many people doing them have varied interpretations of the regs etc .

 

[MDJ]

No 2 although maybe accurate if cables clipped direct 16 amp would be ok, obviously 1.5 is better suited to 10 amp but you could not say for definate a 16 amp MCB is too big for a 1.5mm2 cable, lots of reasons why it may be compliant

 

[davesparks]

I would expect 1.5mm to be fine for those 16 circuits.

 

[Simon47]

Item 4 is questionable. If the radial only serves a single point it is fine but if multiple points it needs addressing.

It isn't questionable at all, it's just wrong - what reg prohibits a radial and ring sharing an MCB ?
More likely the combination of radial cable size and MCB rating isn't acceptable - e.g. multiple sockets, 2.5mm T&E, B32 MCB. if the MCB were 20A or 25A then it would be fine. If it were 4mm cable it would be fine.

 

[westward10]

It isn't questionable at all, it's just wrong - what reg prohibits a radial and ring sharing an MCB ?
More likely the combination of radial cable size and MCB rating isn't acceptable - e.g. multiple sockets, 2.5mm T&E, B32 MCB. if the MCB were 20A or 25A then it would be fine. If it were 4mm cable it would be fine.

As I said it is questionable and my query was perfectly correct. For you to suggest a 2.5 on a 25A protective device is fine without knowing the installation method is, well, questionable. Not sure how the 32A protective device being type B is relevant.

 

[davesparks]

It isn't questionable at all, it's just wrong - what reg prohibits a radial and ring sharing an MCB ?
More likely the combination of radial cable size and MCB rating isn't acceptable - e.g. multiple sockets, 2.5mm T&E, B32 MCB. if the MCB were 20A or 25A then it would be fine. If it were 4mm cable it would be fine.

But if that extra cable only feeds one point then it is not a radial circuit but is a completely compliant spur from the ring.
So yes, it is questionable.

 

[mainline]

But if that extra cable only feeds one point then it is not a radial circuit but is a completely compliant spur from the ring.
So yes, it is questionable.

A radial circuit in its own right emanates from a consumer unit or power source, where as a spur is a branch off of an existing circuit

 

[DPG]

A radial circuit in its own right emanates from a consumer unit or power source, where as a spur is a branch off of an existing circuit

But a spur on a ring can be taken from any point on the ring, including at the MCB.

 

[mainline]

But a spur on a ring can be taken from any point on the ring, including at the MCB.

Then in my opinion it's not a spur.
If it was taken from a point on the ring then it would be a spur.

Would disconnecting the ring from the mcb then make it a radial ?

 

[DPG]

Then in my opinion it's not a spur.
If it was taken from a point on the ring then it would be a spur.

Would disconnecting the ring from the mcb then make it a radial ?

It is just a part of the ring though - a spur as per the regs.

Yes if you removed the whole ring then it would become a radial with one point.

 

[mainline]

It is just a part of the ring though - a spur as per the regs.

Yes if you removed the whole ring then it would become a radial with one point.

It's not part of the ring it has its own source.

 

[DPG]

It's not part of the ring it has its own source.

You need to look at Appendix 15 section A in the regs. It clearly states 'An unfused spur may be connected to the origin of the circuit in the distribution board'.

 

[mainline]

You need to look at Appendix 15 section A in the regs. It clearly states 'An unfused spur may be connected to the origin of the circuit in the distribution board'.

It also says that a spur is : a branch from a ring or radial final circuit.

 

[DPG]

It also says that a spur is : a branch from a ring or radial final circuit.

Which it is, yes.

 

[davesparks]

Then in my opinion it's not a spur.

Great, but that is not what it says in the regulations or the supporting publications. An EICR should be carried out in accordance with the regulations, not the opinion of a faceless stranger on a forum.

 

[davesparks]

It's not part of the ring it has its own source.

No it doesn't, it all comes from the same source.

The ring and the spur are all connected to the same OCPD, therefore it is all the same circuit.

 

[davesparks]

It also says that a spur is : a branch from a ring or radial final circuit.

Yes and that branch can be connected anywhere in the circuit.

A spur can be connected to any part of a ring circuit, either at a point , a joint box in the cable or at the OCPD.

 

[Lucio de Godoy]

Hi All;

Thank you for your support, suggestions & comments.

The picture below is an extract of the new quote, which went from £1,680 (inc of VAT) to £480 (inc of VAT).

Any thoughts on the new quote pls?

Thanks

Lucio

 

[mainline]

You need to look at Appendix 15 section A in the regs. It clearly states 'An unfused spur may be connected to the origin of the circuit in the distribution board'.

Appendix 15 is informative, not normative, and therefore does NOT form part of the Wiring Regulations.

Nobody is saying it can't be, my point is that when a (spur) is taken from the ring final's ocpd rather than from a point on that ring, it's more like a radial.

Apart from sharing the same ocpd it has no relation to the load of the ring.

If the ring was cut, would this then be 3 radials ? or 3 spurs ?

 

[buzzlightyear]

not the opinion of a faceless stranger on a forum

wow daveboy ,i nearly spat my dinner over the screen ,you are not calling him Mr invisible with long fingers typing away, i cant see you .

 

[mainline]

Ring and radial together in the same mcb.
Shouldn't he have said ring and spur ???

 

[mainline]

Not something I would do. What does the radial feed?

It's not a radial, it's a spur

 

[Simon47]

As I said it is questionable and my query was perfectly correct.

I would still argue that there is no question, it is just not an accurate description of the problem.

For you to suggest a 2.5 on a 25A protective device is fine without knowing the installation method is, well, questionable.

OK, point taken. Depending on installation method, it may be OK.

Not sure how the 32A protective device being type B is relevant.

It being the typical device protecting an RFC. It could be a C32, but most likely a B32.
Presumably we can agree that a 32A MCB (whether B, C, or D curve) protecting a 2.5mm T&E (most likely type of cable) is not acceptable other than certain circumstances (such as being a spur feeding just a double socket) ? So if there is indeed a radial circuit (i.e. something that doesn't meet the requirements to exceed the normal protective device limit for the cable & installation method)) rather than a spur taken off at the MCB, and it's wired in 2.5mm T&E, then that is incorrect - but not because it's sharing an MCB with an RFC. It's incorrect because the MCB rating is too high for the rating of the cable and hence the fault description is simply wrong.

Do we agree that (assuming the cable and installation method agree), having a radial off (say) a B20 would be OK ? Also, having an RFC off a B20, while unusual, would be OK ? Now show me a reg that says they cannot share the same MCB ?

So the description is incorrect, and the statement of "needed" remediation later posted by the OP is incorrect as a result. Moving it to an additional MCB (16A seems a bit low, but as you say, we don't know all the details) is one way of dealing with it, it's not the only way and the wording is incorrect in that respect as well - but that is perhaps being a bit pedantic. For instance, if there is another circuit with a suitably rated MCB, and anticipated usage doesn't suggest it causing problems, then it may be as simple as moving the radial to share a different MCB - and that's probably what most of us would do if there wasn't room in the board to add another circuit.
Given that the inspecting electrician gets this wrong, what else has he got wrong ?

 

[DPG]

I would still argue that there is no question, it is just not an accurate description of the problem.

OK, point taken. Depending on installation method, it may be OK.

It being the typical device protecting an RFC. It could be a C32, but most likely a B32.
Presumably we can agree that a 32A MCB (whether B, C, or D curve) protecting a 2.5mm T&E (most likely type of cable) is not acceptable other than certain circumstances (such as being a spur feeding just a double socket) ? So if there is indeed a radial circuit (i.e. something that doesn't meet the requirements to exceed the normal protective device limit for the cable & installation method)) rather than a spur taken off at the MCB, and it's wired in 2.5mm T&E, then that is incorrect - but not because it's sharing an MCB with an RFC. It's incorrect because the MCB rating is too high for the rating of the cable and hence the fault description is simply wrong.

Do we agree that (assuming the cable and installation method agree), having a radial off (say) a B20 would be OK ? Also, having an RFC off a B20, while unusual, would be OK ? Now show me a reg that says they cannot share the same MCB ?

So the description is incorrect, and the statement of "needed" remediation later posted by the OP is incorrect as a result. Moving it to an additional MCB (16A seems a bit low, but as you say, we don't know all the details) is one way of dealing with it, it's not the only way and the wording is incorrect in that respect as well - but that is perhaps being a bit pedantic. For instance, if there is another circuit with a suitably rated MCB, and anticipated usage doesn't suggest it causing problems, then it may be as simple as moving the radial to share a different MCB - and that's probably what most of us would do if there wasn't room in the board to add another circuit.
Given that the inspecting electrician gets this wrong, what else has he got wrong ?

Very well put post. Having said that, I've just had a bottle of king goblin and 3 very nice IPAs, so I may not be the best person to ask.

Is it fruity sir? Is it? Is it sir? Suit you sir.

Etc.

 

[mainline]

No it doesn't, it all comes from the same source.

The ring and the spur are all connected to the same OCPD, therefore it is all the same circuit.

It’s not a spur it’s a radial as stated in the report from the electrician who has actually looked at the install.

 

[mainline]

Yes and that branch can be connected anywhere in the circuit.

A spur can be connected to any part of a ring circuit, either at a point , a joint box in the cable or at the OCPD.

Nobody is saying any different.
When the 2.5mm is connected to the rings 32 amp ocpd and feeds outlets that could cause an overload then it’s not a spur it’s a radial.

 

[mainline]

Great, but that is not what it says in the regulations or the supporting publications. An EICR should be carried out in accordance with the regulations, not the opinion of a faceless stranger on a forum.

It’s not the opinion of a faceless stranger it’s the opinion of a faceless stranger who has actually looked at the install and wrote a report deeming it to be a radial fed from a 32 amp ocpd hence the c2.

 

[davesparks]

It’s not a spur it’s a radial as stated in the report from the electrician who has actually looked at the install.

A report carried out by someone who can't tell the difference between a contactor and a switch, I doubt they've taken the time to establish how many sockets are on the spur.
And even if there are multiple sockets on that cable it would be a spur on a spur, not a radial circuit. It could be solved by making it a radial circuit however.

 

[davesparks]

It’s not the opinion of a faceless stranger it’s the opinion of a faceless stranger who has actually looked at the install and wrote a report deeming it to be a radial fed from a 32 amp ocpd hence the c2.

That post was a reply to your statement that in your opinion a spur from the MCB is not a spur.
You appeared to be implying that in your opinion a spur cannot be taken from the MCB of a ring circuit. I was replying to that saying that an EICR should be carried out to BS7671 and not to your opinion.

 

[davesparks]

Nobody is saying it can't be, my point is that when a (spur) is taken from the ring final's ocpd rather than from a point on that ring, it's more like a radial.

No it isn't, it is a spur the same as if it is taken from any other point on the ring.

If the ring was cut, would this then be 3 radials ? or 3 spurs ?

Neither, it would be a fault which needs to be repaired.

 

[mainline]

That post was a reply to your statement that in your opinion a spur from the MCB is not a spur.
You appeared to be implying that in your opinion a spur cannot be taken from the MCB of a ring circuit. I was replying to that saying that an EICR should be carried out to BS7671 and not to your opinion.

My post was in relation to the report posted by the op.
My point was about whether it’s a spur or a radial and my opinion was that it is a radial and not a spur or a spur on spur.

A radial is a cable from a power source if this power source is taken from a point on the ring other than the ocpd directly then it’s a spur as it effects the load and balance of that ring.

Appendix 15 calls it a spur when taken from the ocpd to a socket or fcu but this is just informative and not part of the regs and think it was more to do with 411.

Anyway that’s my faceless strangers opinion on a forum as it is yours.

 

[Rockingit]

Do we actually know what voltage that door switch is operating at? It says it's switching a cupboard light, but if that light was 12v selv and the switch is on the 12v side then it's still ugly, but not a C1!

 

[mainline]

Do we actually know what voltage that door switch is operating at? It says it's switching a cupboard light, but if that light was 12v selv and the switch is on the 12v side then it's still ugly, but not a C1!

I don't think the inspector knows either

 

[mainline]

Great, but that is not what it says in the regulations or the supporting publications. An EICR should be carried out in accordance with the regulations, not the opinion of a faceless stranger on a forum.

This fella puts his face to it about halfway through, he has an opinion on the very subject.