Don’t get taken for a ride by electrical ‘Rogue Trainers’ urges industry body

Want to become a qualified electrician? Look carefully at the training courses on offer to avoid wasting time and money, is the advice in a new campaign from electrical industry body The Electrotechnical Skills Partnership (TESP).

With thousands of searches each year on terms such as ‘electrical courses’ and ‘how to become an electrician’, many people are at risk of taking the wrong training path if they’re not aware of the correct routes they should follow.

Alongside the many training providers who are doing the right thing and offering industry-recognised qualifications, there are unfortunately some training providers – dubbed by TESP as ‘Rogue Trainers’ – who don’t deliver on their promises, presenting a range of courses which look impressive to the untrained eye, but on proper inspection don’t lead to qualified status.

Click to view video

In a short, animated video from TESP, an unsuspecting victim is drawn into a house of horrors by false claims which turn out not to be all they seem.

The advice to those wanting to become an electrician is look carefully at what’s on offer and be aware of red flags like hard sells, payment plans, and qualification packages which aren’t recognised by industry.

Full advice is available at www.roguetrainers.co.uk with top tips for choosing a training provider, along with warning signs to look out for when researching a provider’s claims. Visitors are signposted to TESP’s industry approved Training Routes to read more on the right paths to follow to become qualified.

“There are still too many reports of people spending thousands of pounds with companies who wilfully misrepresent where their training leads,” said Ruth Devine, TESP Chair and Managing Director of SJD Electrical. “Some providers use high-pressure sales techniques to trap learners with a large financial commitment, but devious contract terms mean there’s no realistic prospect of achieving the qualification.”

“When so many training providers jump through hoops to do things properly and engage responsibly with industry and employers, it’s important that potential learners are aware of the pitfalls.

“We hope to raise awareness of this campaign to the general public and help those who may fall foul of rogue trainers when looking to become an electrician.”

Watch the video and find out more about the campaign.

Click to view video

 

[Electrics]

"Importantly, the routes clearly stress that becoming a fully qualified electrician can only be achieved with valid on-site work experience, as opposed to courses that offer no ‘real world’ practical skills."

There is no standard, body, qualification or overseeing authority that defines 'fully qualified'. In short, there's no such thing.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The closest thing to 'qualified' in todays market is an up to date NVQ3 ?

But as you say the term 'qualified' in the electrical industry means nothing as it there is no formal one size fits all qualification

Its not like a driving test where you pass and then are qualified to drive , the electrical trade has never ever had such a universal standard

 

[Elec_Skills_Partnership]

Whilst there is currently no protection of title nor formal licence to practice for the profession, the industry-approved qualification routes on the Electrical Careers website from TESP (Electrical Training - Qualified Electrical Training Courses - https://www.electricalcareers.co.uk/joining-the-industry/training-routes/) show that whilst there is no one size fits all, there is a clear industry standard across all four UK nations.

The message from TESP on behalf of industry employers is that a vocational qualification including technical knowledge and work-based experience at Level 3, and the AM2 industry assessment of competence is required to be recognised as a qualified electrician. This can be achieved via a variety of aligned routes, be it the ideal route of the apprenticeship, a mixture of further education training and work experience - whether funded by Government or the learner, or via accreditation of experience through the Experienced Worker Assessment.

The routes to qualification are agreed in partnership with industry bodies, employers and providers. The routes are widely recognised across by Government and across different client sectors, and are intended to help learners avoid wasting their money on time on training that doesn’t get them to where they want to be.

The Electrotechnical Assessment Specification, which sets the requirements to join (admittedly non-mandatory) certification body schemes, aligns with the routes for work category A1.2 Other than dwellings covered by BS 7671 (as amended). The accepted qualifications are detailed in the accompanying EAS Qualifications Guide.

The ECS Gold Card eligibility requirements also align with the TESP routes.

 

[Electrics]

Whilst there is currently no protection of title nor formal licence to practice for the profession, the industry-approved qualification routes on the Electrical Careers website from TESP (Electrical Training - Qualified Electrical Training Courses - https://www.electricalcareers.co.uk/joining-the-industry/training-routes/) show that whilst there is no one size fits all, there is a clear industry standard across all four UK nations.

No they really don't - you're just an awarding body with no authority in law. No different to NICEIC. Until there are laws governing competence like with GasSafe there is no standard. This is just a fact no matter how many organisations step up and say they are setting the standards. If you don't have to adhere to them then there is no standard, and there certainly is no such thing as 'fully qualified electrician' - the law says 'competence' is all that counts.

I wouldn't have said anything but i don't like organisations saying things that are patently untrue in order to sell themselves.

The message from TESP on behalf of industry employers is that a vocational qualification including technical knowledge and work-based experience at Level 3, and the AM2 industry assessment of competence is required to be recognised as a qualified electrician.

Recognised by who? One group of people taking it upon themselves to try to define 'fully qualified' means nothing when there is no actual standards defining it in law.

The routes to qualification are agreed in partnership with industry bodies, employers and providers. The routes are widely recognised across by Government and across different client sectors, and are intended to help learners avoid wasting their money on time on training that doesn’t get them to where they want to be.

You can trade as an electrician with no qualifications at all. Competence is what 'qualifies' you to be an electrician in law. It's a shame that you've simply tried to justify the wrong statements you made instead of just admitting that you worded it wrongly.

The simple fact is there is no such thing as 'fully qualified electrician' and there is no standard setters or authority no matter how many of you governing bodies try to take it upon yourselves to become the authority. Until people have no choice but to follow your standards then all you are is a glorified NICEIC membership scheme with no authority to say what 'qualified' is and isn't.

 

[Lister1987]

I'm confused, which part are you taking umbrage to @CamoElectric ? The fact they're trying to demystify the "accepted" routes or that they aren't a statutory body with any form of control? I've not seen evidence of the latter, thry have said throughout thry work with various organisations (none of which at statutory) to try and give clear guidance to those wanting to get into the trade.

I agree with some of your points above but I would t shoot them down for what they are doing as upto now, no-one has tried to clearly define a path.

It doesn't help that the terminology throughout is a mix of 'qualified' and 'competent', the former is only 1 way to prove that latter and I would strongly urge TESP and thr wider industry to adopt not 'qualified' but 'competent' as the important factor - EAWR and other associated legislation doesn't use 'Qualified' so why is everyone else? Money I suspect; You need this qual, this qual and this qual.

I'm not opposed to the NVQ3 & AM2 as they help demonstrate the skills required but that whole mindset that you're not qualified competent without them needs to disappear - If you work with the organisations as you say you do, how about this as thr next meaningful change to the industry?

You could definitely improve what you do but I do applaude what you have done thus far.

 

[Elec_Skills_Partnership]

Camo – it’s clear you have differing views to us, so we will have to agree to disagree. However you have made some inaccurate statements about TESP which we must correct.

TESP is not an awarding body, a membership body, or certification body. We are a not-for-profit organisation that does not sell products or membership.

Our aim with the Rogue Trainers campaign is to raise awareness of those training providers who are looking to take advantage of the unsuspecting public, following reports of concerning practice.

We understand if you do not want to be part of this, but we are grateful for those who do and are really pleased with the level of support the campaign has received so far.

Have a good day!

 

[Electrics]

I'm confused, which part are you taking umbrage to @CamoElectric ?

Statements like this that are factually false but get bandied about:

"becoming a fully qualified electrician can only be achieved with valid on-site work experience".

There's no such thing as 'fully qualified', it literally doesn't exist because the profession is unregulated in this country, standing alone in Europe in this regard along with Netherlands. Go ask any European country if your skills are accepted and they will tell you you will be instantly accepted with any top qualification unless from the UK or Holland.

I get a bit tired of seeing people saying things like this, people saying things like 'you have to be fully qualified to rewire a light because it's ILLEGAL IF YOU DON'T', 'you can't sell your house unless the electrics are carried out by a fully qualified electrician' and other such things that are total nonsense.

I'm on the same side as you - i want heavy regulation but different bodies popping up to claim authority means nothing. Until something is written into law like Gas Safe there is no such thing as 'fully qualified', there are electricians that have qualifications XYZ, there are those with none but more experience who do a better job, those who have passed the 18th + inspection and testing and nothing else, those who have done design and EV, it's a whole mixed bag and there's no official definition of which of these you must have to be considered 'fully qualified'.

 

[Electrics]

Camo – it’s clear you have differing views to us, so we will have to agree to disagree.

There's no 'agree' or 'disagree' though - there's no such thing as 'fully qualified' in this country and no authority (as of yet) that has the right to decide what counts as such.

End of story.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The closest thing that England has to a 'qualified' electricians is an up to date NVQ3 ??

no such thing as 'fully qualified' as far as I am concerned

 

[Lister1987]

@Elec_Skills_Partnership you mention inaccuracies from @CamoElectric s perspective but what of yours and the usage of 'fully qualified' instead of 'competent', why have you choosen that specific choice of words versus terminology that is commonplace in thr various legislations - That is part of the problem is it not?

If your going to push for better then I implore you; be the change, use correct terminology and challenge the establishment view that being '(fully) qualfied' is more important than 'competent'.

 

[sjd_electrical]

As the (unpaid) employer Chair of TESP, working with industry bodies, Government, fellow employers and providers to try and make things easier, less confusing and ideally safer... I accept the term 'fully-qualified' can be viewed as controversial when there is no statutory regulation in the UK.

It's used to resonate with the vast numbers of people that aim to become an electrician, usually by collecting qualifications that mean something to someone. Unfortunately not all combinations of qualifications lead to something that is recognised by many people that employ electricians, or procure, specify or assess electrical work. The Level 3 NVQ or apprenticeship including the end point assessment is generally the standard / benchmark (insert whatever word you wish to use) for those who set criteria. But not all do.

Yes, you can call yourself an electrician if you want when all you've ever done is replace a lamp, or absolutely nothing of any worth at all. And there are many excellent, knowledgeable electricians out there who are not 'fully qualified'. Indeed I've come across defacto electrical engineers who would meet professional recognition criteria.

However, is that the message young people and career changers should have? Or should they be guided towards achieved a time-served, work-based vocational route with clearly specified technical knowledge and a rigorous end test? Should they be steered away from bundles of courses with limited technical knowledge, little practical work and no on-site experience, costing thousands? Why are they being sold inspection and testing and pat testing qualifications, rather than electrical theory, as a way to enter the industry?

Perhaps this will change in future with the Building Safety Bill making its passage through parliament, with the planned introduction of the Building Safety Regulator within HSE and establishment of sector competency frameworks in line with BS Flex 8760. Until then industry continues to organise and regulate itself on a voluntary basis. Which as we all know is by no means a perfect situation.

For any competent, practicing individuals that aren't deemed 'fully-qualified' and for whatever reason this becomes a problem for them and a qualification is required, TESP has developed the Ofqual-approved Experienced Worker Assessment, aligned to the Level 3 apprenticeship. This has full guidance for candidates and providers plus a defined Skills Scan template, to try and prevent unnecessary training being sold, but protecting confidence in the 'standard'.

It's really not an easy industry to understand or navigate, TESP activity is intended to help.

@Elec_Skills_Partnership you mention inaccuracies from @CamoElectric s perspective but what of yours and the usage of 'fully qualified' instead of 'competent', why have you choosen that specific choice of words versus terminology that is commonplace in thr various legislations - That is part of the problem is it not?

If your going to push for better then I implore you; be the change, use correct terminology and challenge the establishment view that being '(fully) qualfied' is more important than 'competent'.

Qualifications don't equal competence, but they can be a good foundation to measure the receipt of standardised training and assessment in a safety-critical role. Competence has to be maintained and can be affected by motivation and other external factors. It's very difficult to measure, hence the development of the AM2 decades ago (well before my time).

I can't say I've encountered an establishment view that qualifications are superior to competence, it's just competence is such a trickly and variable subject. Industry has been grappling with how to define CPD requirements and re validation of competence for many years, and I suspect for a few more years to come given the diversity of individuals working in the industry, and the diversity of the work itself.

Answers on a postcard please! You might find this interesting if you're so inclined...

Built Environmental core Criteria for Building Safety in Competence Frameworks Code of Practice

BSI Flex 8670 has been created in response to findings from the Hackitt review. This review highlighted a fragmented approach to – and a lack of consistency in – the processes and standards for assuring the competence of those working on buildings as a major flaw in the current regulatory system. Accordingly, BSI Flex 8670 will provide a set of core principles of competence, including leading and managing safety, communicating safety, delivering safety, risk management, regulations and processes, building systems, ethics, and fire/life safety.

BSI Flex is a new dynamic and iterative standardization approach. Accordingly, this standard is the result of work undertaken virtually by a team of industry stakeholders to agree on content to release to the marketplace quickly.

This method permits a rapid response to industry changes and can result in the publication of several versions a year.

However, the BSI Flex development process has now come to its conclusion and BSI Flex 8670 will begin transitioning into BS 8670 in 2022. BSI will make BSI Flex 8670 available until BS 8670 is published unless we receive authoritative advice to withdraw it. We ask that the industry keep using BSI Flex 8670 until it is either superseded or withdrawn.

Offered as a free-to-use resource, BSI Flex 8670 is intended to inform the development of future competence frameworks (or be used to map against existing frameworks) in the built environment sector.

 

[Electrics]

@Elec_Skills_Partnership you mention inaccuracies from @CamoElectric s perspective but what of yours and the usage of 'fully qualified' instead of 'competent', why have you choosen that specific choice of words versus terminology that is commonplace in thr various legislations - That is part of the problem is it not?

If your going to push for better then I implore you; be the change, use correct terminology and challenge the establishment view that being '(fully) qualfied' is more important than 'competent'.

'ere 'ere.

 

[Electrics]

As the (unpaid) employer Chair of TESP, working with industry bodies, Government, fellow employers and providers to try and make things easier, less confusing and ideally safer... I accept the term 'fully-qualified' can be viewed as controversial when there is no statutory regulation in the UK.

It's used to resonate with the vast numbers of people that aim to become an electrician, usually by collecting qualifications that mean something to someone. Unfortunately not all combinations of qualifications lead to something that is recognised by many people that employ electricians, or procure, specify or assess electrical work. The Level 3 NVQ or apprenticeship including the end point assessment is generally the standard / benchmark (insert whatever word you wish to use) for those who set criteria. But not all do.

Yes, you can call yourself an electrician if you want when all you've ever done is replace a lamp, or absolutely nothing of any worth at all. And there are many excellent, knowledgeable electricians out there who are not 'fully qualified'. Indeed I've come across defacto electrical engineers who would meet professional recognition criteria.

However, is that the message young people and career changers should have? Or should they be guided towards achieved a time-served, work-based vocational route with clearly specified technical knowledge and a rigorous end test? Should they be steered away from bundles of courses with limited technical knowledge, little practical work and no on-site experience, costing thousands? Why are they being sold inspection and testing and pat testing qualifications, rather than electrical theory, as a way to enter the industry?

Perhaps this will change in future with the Building Safety Bill making its passage through parliament, with the planned introduction of the Building Safety Regulator within HSE and establishment of sector competency frameworks in line with BS Flex 8760. Until then industry continues to organise and regulate itself on a voluntary basis. Which as we all know is by no means a perfect situation.

For any competent, practicing individuals that aren't deemed 'fully-qualified' and for whatever reason this becomes a problem for them and a qualification is required, TESP has developed the Ofqual-approved Experienced Worker Assessment, aligned to the Level 3 apprenticeship. This has full guidance for candidates and providers plus a defined Skills Scan template, to try and prevent unnecessary training being sold, but protecting confidence in the 'standard'.

It's really not an easy industry to understand or navigate, TESP activity is intended to help.



Qualifications don't equal competence, but they can be a good foundation to measure the receipt of standardised training and assessment in a safety-critical role. Competence has to be maintained and can be affected by motivation and other external factors. It's very difficult to measure, hence the development of the AM2 decades ago (well before my time).

I can't say I've encountered an establishment view that qualifications are superior to competence, it's just competence is such a trickly and variable subject. Industry has been grappling with how to define CPD requirements and re validation of competence for many years, and I suspect for a few more years to come given the diversity of individuals working in the industry, and the diversity of the work itself.

Answers on a postcard please! You might find this interesting if you're so inclined...

Built Environmental core Criteria for Building Safety in Competence Frameworks Code of Practice

Interesting.

I hope you succeed in getting a grip on this - the industry in this country is a mess.

It should just be cut and dry - you have to do an apprenticeship or equivalent to touch electrics of any kind. Only once your NVQ and end point assessment are complete can you do this. If you missed the boat for an apprenticeship there should be recognised routes for adults into the industry. Do that and short course providers cease to be needed, but they are at the moment often the only way into the industry for working adults.

Where i am for example there are no evening courses so i would either have to go full time at college or pay for a short course.

Making the grants/funding the exact same for those of any age would allow people to take on adults and drive out the need for a lot of short courses.

At the end of the day it's not the training that's the problem, it's the lack of being able to break into the industry in any other way that drives people towards these places.

We need a body to be appointed by government that oversees everything and defines fully qualified as Technical Qualification to Level 3 + NVQ Portfolio + End Point Assessment + 18th Ed + Inspection and Testing. Can't touch electric of any kind without supervision unless you've got all that. Once you do have that, you should have the authority to install, inspect, test, certify and design circuits without having to pay more money to building control/scheme scams every year.

That imo is what is needed.

Until then there is no 'fully qualified', there are no standards outside of 'competent' and this industry remains the wild west.

If you think about it, you're using terms like 'fully qualified' in an industry where a 'fully qualified' electrician isn't allowed to say work is safe unless he pays some awarding body several hundred quid a year. Doesn't that seem silly? All of a sudden 'fully qualified' by your definition doesn't seem to be worth much.

 

[ipf]

Say what you want....Qualified or competent but in my eyes you have to be qualified to be properly competent.........and competent to be properly qualified.

 

[Petej999]

The closest thing to 'qualified' in todays market is an up to date NVQ3 ?

But as you say the term 'qualified' in the electrical industry means nothing as it there is no formal one size fits all qualification

Its not like a driving test where you pass and then are qualified to drive , the electrical trade has never ever had such a universal standard

And therein lies the problem with todays boil in the bag Electrician courses, and those poor souls that take and pass these courses and are allowed to be classed as Electricians IMO FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH.

View attachment 90993

Want to become a qualified electrician? Look carefully at the training courses on offer to avoid wasting time and money, is the advice in a new campaign from electrical industry body The Electrotechnical Skills Partnership (TESP).

With thousands of searches each year on terms such as ‘electrical courses’ and ‘how to become an electrician’, many people are at risk of taking the wrong training path if they’re not aware of the correct routes they should follow.

Alongside the many training providers who are doing the right thing and offering industry-recognised qualifications, there are unfortunately some training providers – dubbed by TESP as ‘Rogue Trainers’ – who don’t deliver on their promises, presenting a range of courses which look impressive to the untrained eye, but on proper inspection don’t lead to qualified status.

Click to view video

In a short, animated video from TESP, an unsuspecting victim is drawn into a house of horrors by false claims which turn out not to be all they seem.

The advice to those wanting to become an electrician is look carefully at what’s on offer and be aware of red flags like hard sells, payment plans, and qualification packages which aren’t recognised by industry.

Full advice is available at www.roguetrainers.co.uk with top tips for choosing a training provider, along with warning signs to look out for when researching a provider’s claims. Visitors are signposted to TESP’s industry approved Training Routes to read more on the right paths to follow to become qualified.

“There are still too many reports of people spending thousands of pounds with companies who wilfully misrepresent where their training leads,” said Ruth Devine, TESP Chair and Managing Director of SJD Electrical. “Some providers use high-pressure sales techniques to trap learners with a large financial commitment, but devious contract terms mean there’s no realistic prospect of achieving the qualification.”

“When so many training providers jump through hoops to do things properly and engage responsibly with industry and employers, it’s important that potential learners are aware of the pitfalls.

“We hope to raise awareness of this campaign to the general public and help those who may fall foul of rogue trainers when looking to become an electrician.”

Watch the video and find out more about the campaign.

Click to view video

Far to many of these money grabbin shysters about these days IMO

 

[Electrics]

Say what you want....Qualified or competent but in my eyes you have to be qualified to be properly competent.........and competent to be properly qualified.

But that's the problem, you can't be 'qualified' because there's no such thing.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

But that's the problem, you can't be 'qualified' because there's no such thing.

Sure you can be qualified. Anyone with any electrical qualification meets the dictionary definition. But totally agree with you regarding 'fully qualified', there is no such thing.

 

[nicebutdim]

But that's the problem, you can't be 'qualified' because there's no such thing.

Employers may stipulate their own requirements. I know in NI that most would expect to see nothing other than the traditional apprenticeship route.

 

[Electrics]

Sure you can be qualified. Anyone with any electrical qualification meets the dictionary definition. But totally agree with you regarding 'fully qualified', there is no such thing.

Yeah i mean what qual counts? Level 2? Inspection and testing + experience? It's a terrible minefield of an industry imo.

I cut my teeth in Europe and their rules are far superior, they're properly regulated and even their standards are better.

UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Yeah i mean what qual counts? Level 2? Inspection and testing + experience? It's a terrible minefield of an industry imo.

I cut my teeth in Europe and their rules are far superior, they're properly regulated and even their standards are better.

UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.

Yeah, I see your point. With no legal obligation to hold any qualification to do electrical work, the only qualifications that count are the ones your employers or clients want to see. As I'm self employed, that generally means 'none'.

I took the short course route into the industry, but largely consider myself self-taught. I don't have a huge amount of faith in formal training/education (I find you mostly end up teaching yourself with the aid of books anyway), but I wanted some sort of qualification so I could say I was 'qualified' if anyone asked. Only once have I been asked if I'm 'fully qualified', to which I said I'm qualified for the range of work I do (which is true, but then so is anyone).

 

[ipf]

Yeah i mean what qual counts? Level 2? Inspection and testing + experience? It's a terrible minefield of an industry imo.

You're right there...but it's been the same and just getting worse for goodness knows how long. All those top 'greats' of our industry (and government) just doing there best to ferk up everything that's gone before them with a fast forward button....making it so easy to become an electrician yet so difficult to become an experienced and competent one.
Not just our lot, of course, but we're a hell of a good example.

 

[ipf]

UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.

Wouldn't be surprised if we're even behind in feet and inches or pounds and ounces....by miles.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Except in France you do not have to be qualified to work on your own domestic installation, no such thing a Part P or notifying your LBC.

 

[Electrics]

Except in France you do not have to be qualified to work on your own domestic installation, no such thing a Part P or notifying your LBC.

https://www.consuel.com/

And the point here is there is an actual definition of what constitutes 'fully qualified' and it's called 'technicien', one step above 'electricien' which is their equivalent to domestic installer. It's a regulated profession in France, it isn't here which is why our quals aren't readily accepted in Europe.

 

[Mike Johnson]

But means nothing in domestic work if the main is already connected, the only time an installation is checked is in a house sale and then not by anyone qualified or Consuel.

 

[Vortigern]

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury (EAWR)

16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.
So far as I know this is the only statutory requirement in doing electrical work. While an industrial installation worker and domestic worker my have the same qualifications, there is no way either could do the others work. Regs talk of "skilled persons" another layer of definition.
So statutorily: Technical knowledge, from qualifications? Experience; on the job? But the whole point of being competent, the aim, is to PREVENT DANGER AND INJURY. So work carried out must be done to regs to obviate injury and danger. Which in some ways is common sense. I think it is easily forgotten that an electricians work is not that difficult. From a qualification viewpoint it is really just basic science nothing rocket science about it. The techniques employed by a skilled experienced person are not that difficult once learnt. I do think sometimes some get a bit up themselves in presenting being an electrician as an insoluble maze of technical difficulty whereas it is very mundane and simple. Present company excepted of course.

 

[Vortigern]

134.2.1 During erection and on completion of an installation or an addition or alteration to an installation,
and before it is put into service, appropriate inspection and testing shall be carried out by skilled persons competent
to verify that the requirements of this Standard have been met.
Under definitions;
Skilled person (electrically). Person who possesses, as appropriate to the nature of the electrical work to be
undertaken, adequate education, training and practical skills, and who is able to perceive risks and avoid hazards
which electricity can create
Just to further define what an electrician should be by statute and regs. HSE provide further info on competent as defined in EAWR. But this is all rather common sense. Competent is mentioned a number of times especially around I&T having to be competent to do I&T.

 

[Vortigern]

UK is miles behind in every single measurable metric imo.

Ok now thats fighting talk! I think you're statements below are open to debate.

There is no standard, body, qualification or overseeing authority that defines 'fully qualified'. In short, there's no such thing.

there is no standard setters

Third party certification schemes for domestic electrical work

Find out how you can join a third party certification scheme for domestic electrical work.

www.gov.uk

I think you will find in the link a tad of standards which govern entry and competence within the electrical trades. CPS are not just there to say your work is ok but also to assess entrants to ensure they have the competencies and qualifications to safely work. You can see gov.uk has devolved the responsibility for overseeing competency to these schemes. I will be the first to admit that there are flaws. However are you really saying there are no imcompetent electricians in europe? That you will only find them here in England or Holland? Arguing about "fully qualified" is tilting at windmills imho. It is purely semantics. Yes it could be stated in a better way, but does not really cut to the core of what a competent person is by changing a few words. It would seem you may have much to contribute to TESP. I think a lot of people on here are highly skilled persons and competent and would have much to contribute here and abroad. Some of your statements suggest this may not be so by implication. I object to that. While I take some of what you say on board as having merit there are parts that skate close to insult which I have always been taught, is it kind, is it true, is it necessary, if not, do not say it. You might usefully reflect on that.

 

[Lister1987]

Say what you want....Qualified or competent but in my eyes you have to be qualified to be properly competent.........and competent to be properly qualified.

Its the whole 'lesser' and 'fewer' argument all over again. They simply aren't interchangable.

 

[Lister1987]

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury (EAWR)

16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.
So far as I know this is the only statutory requirement in doing electrical work. While an industrial installation worker and domestic worker my have the same qualifications, there is no way either could do the others work. Regs talk of "skilled persons" another layer of definition.

And here is the first problem; that language used is not consistent across mediums. I get EAWR has to by its nature use definitive terms but it would help if the non-statutory media we utilise used the same language to avoid ambiguity; A classic example often given is EAWRs use of SHALL and MUST for absolute regulation, no use of unambiguous terms like MAY etc.

So statutorily: Technical knowledge, from qualifications? Experience; on the job? But the whole point of being competent, the aim, is to PREVENT DANGER AND INJURY. So work carried out must be done to regs to obviate injury and danger. Which in some ways is common sense. I think it is easily forgotten that an electricians work is not that difficult.

From a qualification viewpoint it is really just basic science nothing rocket science about it.

From a hands on tools stand point you're probably right but it's the understanding of the scientific fundamentals and how to work safely with them.

The techniques employed by a skilled experienced person are not that difficult once learnt. I do think sometimes some get a bit up themselves in presenting being an electrician as an insoluble maze of technical difficulty whereas it is very mundane and simple. Present company excepted of course.

True but to those that have no clue, as with any skill, it can be like witchcraft is being performed in front of you.

Any idiot can put wires in holes and tighten screws but it takes time, knowledge, retention to select the right wire, the right tools and all the other bits that we learn over time to truly do the job problem. Anyone can lash it in, flick a switch and see light turns on but it takes thr right kind of person to do it safely etc.

134.2.1 During erection and on completion of an installation or an addition or alteration to an installation,and before it is put into service, appropriate inspection and testing shall be carried out by skilled persons competent to verify that the requirements of this Standard have been met.

Under definitions;
Skilled person (electrically). Person who possesses, as appropriate to the nature of the electrical work to be undertaken, adequate education, training and practical skills, and who is able to perceive risks and avoid hazards which electricity can create

Just to further define what an electrician should be by statute and regs. HSE provide further info on competent as defined in EAWR. But this is all rather common sense. Competent is mentioned a number of times especially around I&T having to be competent to do I&T.

Competency is mentioned in most H&S legislation, as opposed to qualifications, presumably because the latter is a simply metric of the former.

Biggest issue in the whole thing is that (in terms of terminology) we're not all singing off the same hymnsheet; Legislators will talk of competence (because they have no financial reason to talk about qualifications).

Trainers and other organisations (set to benefit from cash changing hands - money for services that is, not bribes, although....) will talk of qualifications because it's how they make thier money,

Old timers will talk of apprenticeships being the dogs danglies because it is how they cut thier teeth and were likely no alternative routes available.

Course students will complain (I count myself in that) that companies won't give them thr time of day or accept anything other than apprenticeship due to the lack of financial reason of thrm to take non-apprentices that have "front-loaded' the knowledge so they could understand what they were doing before doing it.

It needs a collective and industry-wide shake up but that will likely not happen and so we'll still hear that Apprenticeships aren't what thry once we're, that the electrical industry needs an overhaul, that anyone that came into the industry via any route other than apprenticeship is seen as inferior or worse; isn't a spark.

I guess those that truly want it (regardless of route), will put thr work in and go and get it. I've been lucky enough to get a job with a company that specifically created roles aimed at those working at level 3 (take it to mean NVQ3 as opposed to Level 3 (2365 / 8202-30) ) and although I didn't have that NVQ3, I was able to convince them that it wasn't having that NVQ3 that made me a good choice but my study ethic, the being the 'Class of Covid', having to put in MORE work to ensure that the knowledge stuck and being able to demonstrate that in interview.

It's ---- but our own experiences are what we make of it. Life is a ---- sandwich, it's just more enjoyable if you have the palate of a dung-beetle ?

 

[Electrics]

Ok now thats fighting talk! I think you're statements below are open to debate.

Third party certification schemes for domestic electrical work

Find out how you can join a third party certification scheme for domestic electrical work.

www.gov.uk

I think you will find in the link a tad of standards which govern entry and competence within the electrical trades.

Nope, they are standards required to join optional third party certification schemes. Not the same thing.

However are you really saying there are no imcompetent electricians in europe?

No?

I think a lot of people on here are highly skilled persons and competent and would have much to contribute here and abroad. Some of your statements suggest this may not be so by implication. I object to that. While I take some of what you say on board as having merit there are parts that skate close to insult which I have always been taught, is it kind, is it true, is it necessary, if not, do not say it. You might usefully reflect on that.

I'm sorry but pointing out factual information about qualifications isn't insulting. If you find it so you may usefully reflect on the fact that you may need to harden up a bit.

 

[Vortigern]

Facts about qualifications? You haven't pointed out any. I will give you an example of what pointing out a fact about qualifications is. Please see attached qualification requirements to join a scheme. These are the facts regards qualifications which you seem to be confused about in that you seem to think there is no standard of required qualifications/experience. Those "optional requirements that are not qualifications,

Nope, they are standards required to join optional third party certification schemes. Not the same thing.

Are a list of qualifications and competencies required to join the trade which you are insisting don't exist. They do. For a person in the uk if they want to know how to become an electrician they would refer to these requirements in order to map out how they can enter the trade. You paint a picture of chaos and indecipherable standards, it simply is not the case the standars are right before you and you are saying they do not exist. For anyone reading this thread who gets the feeling that there is no way to work out how to qualify for entry into the trade, read the attached pdf and you WILL be able to see what is required. Don't listen to unfounded statements that there are no standards. I defy anyone to read the pdf and show me how there are no standards. Next I will go into JIB standard entry requirements and gold card entry qualifications. In order to demonstrate there are very specific requirements for entry into work in the UK as an electrician for those who do not understand the structure of the UK requiements.

 

[Petej999]

Facts about qualifications? You haven't pointed out any. I will give you an example of what pointing out a fact about qualifications is. Please see attached qualification requirements to join a scheme. These are the facts regards qualifications which you seem to be confused about in that you seem to think there is no standard of required qualifications/experience. Those "optional requirements that are not qualifications,

Are a list of qualifications and competencies required to join the trade which you are insisting don't exist. They do. For a person in the uk if they want to know how to become an electrician they would refer to these requirements in order to map out how they can enter the trade. You paint a picture of chaos and indecipherable standards, it simply is not the case the standars are right before you and you are saying they do not exist. For anyone reading this thread who gets the feeling that there is no way to work out how to qualify for entry into the trade, read the attached pdf and you WILL be able to see what is required. Don't listen to unfounded statements that there are no standards. I defy anyone to read the pdf and show me how there are no standards. Next I will go into JIB standard entry requirements and gold card entry qualifications. In order to demonstrate there are very specific requirements for entry into work in the UK as an electrician for those who do not understand the structure of the UK requiements.

Being a CPS member does NOT guarantee Competence.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Facts about qualifications? You haven't pointed out any. I will give you an example of what pointing out a fact about qualifications is. Please see attached qualification requirements to join a scheme. These are the facts regards qualifications which you seem to be confused about in that you seem to think there is no standard of required qualifications/experience. Those "optional requirements that are not qualifications,

Are a list of qualifications and competencies required to join the trade which you are insisting don't exist. They do. For a person in the uk if they want to know how to become an electrician they would refer to these requirements in order to map out how they can enter the trade. You paint a picture of chaos and indecipherable standards, it simply is not the case the standars are right before you and you are saying they do not exist. For anyone reading this thread who gets the feeling that there is no way to work out how to qualify for entry into the trade, read the attached pdf and you WILL be able to see what is required. Don't listen to unfounded statements that there are no standards. I defy anyone to read the pdf and show me how there are no standards. Next I will go into JIB standard entry requirements and gold card entry qualifications. In order to demonstrate there are very specific requirements for entry into work in the UK as an electrician for those who do not understand the structure of the UK requiements.

The EAS you linked to lists requirements to join an optional scheme, so that you may self-notify any notifiable work you carry out in dwellings.

Not having the required qualifications (which I mostly don't), and not being on such a scheme (which I'm not) doesn't legally stop you from doing any electrcial work, including notifiables (which I do).

 

[Dan]

Thanks to all for keeping this article thread professional and on-topic.

I hope this new partnership doesn't just recommend training routes that have paid them to be recommended. I fear that. But I'm sure it'll give the jitters to the dodgy ones who use salesmen to go around fleecing newbies.

I changed domains from .co.uk to .net partly because of a time a few years ago when one of them went to nominet and said our feedback on here about them was not genuine and they had paid for a nominet legal body to represent them in the case, so it risked losing our domain so I had to roll over and remove a thread or two.

We're now hosted in France, backups in Germany, server guy in France, domain is international. It's the most I can do short of living on the moon to protect our threads. I hear it's cold up there, but I would be 30% lighter so may be an option in the future.

 

[Electrics]

Facts about qualifications? You haven't pointed out any.

I'm pointing out facts about being 'fully qualified'. There is no such thing.

I will give you an example of what pointing out a fact about qualifications is. Please see attached qualification requirements to join a scheme. These are the facts regards qualifications which you seem to be confused about in that you seem to think there is no standard of required qualifications/experience. Those "optional requirements that are not qualifications,

These schemes take on those who've done a 6 day course and you're using them as a benchmark? Lol.

Are a list of qualifications and competencies required to join the trade which you are insisting don't exist. They do. For a person in the uk if they want to know how to become an electrician they would refer to these requirements in order to map out how they can enter the trade. You paint a picture of chaos and indecipherable standards, it simply is not the case the standars are right before you and you are saying they do not exist. For anyone reading this thread who gets the feeling that there is no way to work out how to qualify for entry into the trade, read the attached pdf and you WILL be able to see what is required. Don't listen to unfounded statements that there are no standards. I defy anyone to read the pdf and show me how there are no standards. Next I will go into JIB standard entry requirements and gold card entry qualifications. In order to demonstrate there are very specific requirements for entry into work in the UK as an electrician for those who do not understand the structure of the UK requiements.

No actually you're conflating joining a scheme with being 'qualified'. They're not the same things at all and these schemes are NOT an authority although you obviously seem to think they are.

There is no such thing as 'fully qualified' here in the UK. It's not really an argument it's a fact. Until we get standards enshrined in LAW and not just what groups of private scheme providers say then these facts don't change.

Not sure what you're arguing against but it's certainly not what i've been saying in this thread so it seems you're doing what's called 'strawmanning'.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

These schemes take on those who've done a 6 day course and you're using them as a benchmark? Lol.

That was true until very recently, but not since the 1st September 2021

 

[Lister1987]

That was true until very recently, but not since the 1st September 2021

True but you can bet your --- they won't be testing those on the books against that new benchmark for fairness, it'd lose them members and money so not a great benchmark but if they did look to do this I'd think better of them.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I was a director of a professional association for a number of years, it was a constant battle with the other board members to try and get an understanding between quality and quantity of members, eventually I won out and wrote the entrance exam to our Fellowship and started the process to become Chartered, that entailed lots of hoops to jump through, but the standards required assure competence.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

True but you can bet your --- they won't be testing those on the books against that new benchmark for fairness, it'd lose them members and money so not a great benchmark but if they did look to do this I'd think better of them.

Having never been assessed, I'm far from an expert, but my understanding is that the entry requirements have changed, while the annual assessment has remained the same. Is that not the case?

 

[Electrics]

That was true until very recently, but not since the 1st September 2021

Well yeah but the point is they're just an awarding body. Even if their entry requirement was stricter than strict it's irrelevant since you don't have to be a member to be a practising electrician. Only when scheme adherence is MANDATORY to practice the trade do said scheme's requirements become the benchmark for 'fully qualified'.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Well yeah but the point is they're just an awarding body. Even if their entry requirement was stricter than strict it's irrelevant since you don't have to be a member to be a practising electrician. Only when scheme adherence is MANDATORY to practice the trade do said scheme's requirements become the benchmark for 'fully qualified'.

No to mention the scams only cover domestic in regards to building control

I could walk onto any site tomorrow and start work on a 415v 3 phase panel and there is no mandatory minimum qual required for me to do this work and certainly no scam required either

 

[Vortigern]

Being a CPS member does NOT guarantee Competence.

Being a qualified brain surgeon does NOT guarantee Competence. Yeh so thats the case throughout the whole Kingdom. Being an MP, well need I say more. Being a qualified past the bar lawyer, again need I say more. And so on ad infinitium there is no professional area that does not have it's wronguns and crap workers. So the system is endemically all snafu? Yeh but there is emerging some kind of standard. And if a newcomer read the foregoing he could be forgiven for beleiving there is no way to become a qualifed electrician and there is! Read the above one and all. I give up with Camo he just does not want to believe what is in black and white. I could set up as a brain surgeon. The take away here is that there is a proscribed route to being a spark it is not all confusion and chaos.

 

[Electrics]

Being a qualified brain surgeon does NOT guarantee Competence. Yeh so thats the case throughout the whole Kingdom. Being an MP, well need I say more. Being a qualified past the bar lawyer, again need I say more. And so on ad infinitium there is no professional area that does not have it's wronguns and crap workers. So the system is endemically all snafu? Yeh but there is emerging some kind of standard. And if a newcomer read the foregoing he could be forgiven for beleiving there is no way to become a qualifed electrician and there is! Read the above one and all. I give up with Camo he just does not want to beleive what is in black and white. I could set up as a brain surgeon. The take away here is that there is a proscribed route to being a spark it is not all confusion and chaos.

Black and white?

There is a multitude of qualifications, all of which you can either possess or not possess in any combination, and you don't need any of them to legally carry out work of any kind. You only actually 'need' a JIB gold card because employers ask for it, it's not a legal requirement at all and some sites will let people on without them. Competent persons schemes have no weight in law, they're not legal entities, possess no legislative power or otherwise and basically cropped up to position themselves as 'standard' with zero backing from law or statute of any kind meaning they can be simply ignored. They are irrelevant because they're given no power or authority by the actual authorities.

There is no such thing as 'fully qualified' in this country. If you think there is you're simply wrong and that's the end of it. Until there is a qualification which allows only those who possess it to carry out electrical work unsupervised then there is no such thing. That's all there is to it.

As for your brain surgeon comment, it's laughable for several reasons that are obvious to everyone except apparently you. For one yes it does guarantee competence because you have to prove competence to the General Medical Council to become one, which you cannot do without very specific degrees and training. For two no you couldn't just 'set up' as one, don't be ridiculous.

 

[Dustydazzler]

THERE IS NO ONE CAP FITS ALL SITUATIONS ELECTRICIANS QUALIFICATION

NEVER HAS BEEN AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL

 

[Vortigern]

Sorry but forgot to mention the OP. Yes I think it is a great thing you are doing highlighting unscrupulous purveyors of electrical courses and exposing them??? But someone needs to do that and maybe we got a bit off topic and you probably feel you had your fingers bitten off in trying to share what is a noble effort. This forum has so many stories of people who have been ripped off and disappointed on these courses preying on genuinely interested and motivated people. I personally wholly endorse what you are doing.

 

[ElectroChem]

 

[Addyrgv]

All well and good when installations go right, it's when they go wrong and someone gets hurt or worst that the legal side will utilise the 'recommended or industry standards' to measure you by.
Whatever form they take.

 

[Marty92]

"Importantly, the routes clearly stress that becoming a fully qualified electrician can only be achieved with valid on-site work experience, as opposed to courses that offer no ‘real world’ practical skills."

There is no standard, body, qualification or overseeing authority that defines 'fully qualified'. In short, there's no such thing.

I thought I was a member her but it’s been so long that I could not find any trace...

I rejoined/joined because of this post.

I saw talk of this on Twitter, I have to say I 100% agree with you.

‘Companies’ like these guys set up, they endorse their mates in the JIB, ECA, NIC, et-al That bunch of leaches then endorse them back and the incestuous circle starts again.

Boils my blood! Can you tell.

Qualified electrician - meaningless let alone ‘Fully’ qualified. No one is ever fully qualified in this field!

Electrical ‘training’ - meaningless

Approved electrician? Really? Approved be a private company with no Legal standing.

Absolute joke.

This lot will be no differant than all that come before them. Wait for the call for the paper in your wallet to be ‘approved’ by another private company.