“HRRB” regs and EICR’s

[LukeD]

Its like fighting a argument with idiots at times !
OK.


EICR . Building 6 floors Floors high . legal interior height is ground floor to top floor flooring level 15.51 metres . Yet been told that AFD’s need to be fitted . So ..I show them the regs as I believe and also the Gov portal page for the legal measuring of a building to determine if its under 18m . Building documents show 6 floors . Building insurance docs show 6 floors !


So why is there some conflict ??? Unless someone just thinks they can make money from the Job ??

 

[Cbelectrics]

I do understand your gripe . Not really said why it’s concerning you, costing you money?

 

[mainline]

Its like fighting a argument with idiots at times !
OK.


EICR . Building 6 floors Floors high . legal interior height is ground floor to top floor flooring level 15.51 metres . Yet been told that AFD’s need to be fitted . So ..I show them the regs as I believe and also the Gov portal page for the legal measuring of a building to determine if its under 18m . Building documents show 6 floors . Building insurance docs show 6 floors !


So why is there some conflict ??? Unless someone just thinks they can make money from the Job ??

You say a building, but what sort of layout and use. ?

 

[LukeD]

You say a building, but what sort of layout and use. ?

Flats . 6 floors in total . Ground and 5 floors , each floor has 2 flats . . So why would anyone say its a “HRRB” ?? Its not Over 6 floors or over 18m when measured correctly . There are only 2 x regs for domestic ?

 

[Cbelectrics]

Flats . 6 floors in total . Ground and 5 floors , each floor has 2 flats . . So why would anyone say its a “HRRB” ?? Its not Over 6 floors or over 18m when measured correctly . There are only 2 x regs for domestic ?

They are still recommended according the regs.

That’s the only part that would apply to this situation….airing on the side of caution (from a legal standpoint) if given the benefit of doubt or like you said trying to make a bit more money.

As you’re close to the height there is some sense of future proofing the residence (regs changing)

All being said and done though it should be your decision. They should advice you to cover their arse legally but anything else is trying to make money.

Can you get the work done then get someone else to do the eicr?

 

[mainline]

Flats . 6 floors in total . Ground and 5 floors , each floor has 2 flats . . So why would anyone say its a “HRRB” ?? Its not Over 6 floors or over 18m when measured correctly . There are only 2 x regs for domestic ?

Is the building owed by one person ?

 

[mainline]

They are still recommended according the regs.

That’s the only part that would apply to this situation

It's not just about Height, it could be classed as HMO.

 

[LukeD]

It's not just about Height, it could be classed as HMO.

HMO ??? How...never seen luxury flats in a posh part of london , grade 2 listed . With that 6-8 flats been classed as HMO . These are purpose built , not conversions of any types

 

[LukeD]

Is the building owed by one person ?

No... each flat owner is a director . But there is a head lease holder .

 

[LukeD]

They are still recommended according the regs.

That’s the only part that would apply to this situation….airing on the side of caution (from a legal standpoint) if given the benefit of doubt or like you said trying to make a bit more money.

As you’re close to the height there is some sense of future proofing the residence (regs changing)

All being said and done though it should be your decision. They should advice you to cover their arse legally but anything else is trying to make money.

Can you get the work done then get someone else to do the eicr?

“Recommended “ , but not a issue for a EICR to be “failed” . As the legal requirement has been met by fitting RCBO’s

 

[LukeD]

What are the requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022?​

The requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 are focused to provide protection in buildings where a fire could lead to major consequences. AFDDs offer most benefit for arc faults which may occur in equipment plugged into the electrical installation, hence the requirement concentrates on circuits supplying socket-outlets.

Regulation 421.1.7 of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 requires AFDDs to be provided for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32 A in:

• Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB)

• Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

• Purpose-built student accommodation

• Care homes.

For all other premises, the use of AFDDs is recommended for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets not exceeding 32 A. However, this is a recommendation and not a requirement, which means it is a consideration for the designer and not something that shall be done.

What is a higher-risk building?​

A higher-risk building is now defined in Legislation. The Building Safety Act 2002 considers a higher-risk building to be at least 18 metres in height or has at least 7 storeys and contains at least 2 residential units. However, it is recognised that height and use are not the only indicators of risk.

At the time of producing BS 7671:2018+A2:2022, The Building Safety Bill was still working its way through Parliament and the term used at the time was Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB). It has since become Legislation, namely The Building Safety Act 2002, which came into force on 28th April 2022. The term HRRB has been amended to ‘higher-risk buildings’, this will need to be updated in the next Amendment to BS 7671.

When do I need to install AFDDs?​

AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

It is not a requirement to upgrade an existing circuit to include AFDDs when carrying out simple maintenance work such as like-for-like replacements. The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

 

[mainline]

HMO ??? How...never seen luxury flats in a posh part of london , grade 2 listed . With that 6-8 flats been classed as HMO . These are purpose built , not conversions of any types

I don't really know what the setup is, I'm just playing devil's advocate


If the building was converted into flats before 1992 or does not meet the 1991 Building Regulations, and over a third of the flats are rented out, then the whole building will be deemed a HMO, as dictated by Section 257 of the Housing Act 2004.
flats are owner-occupied: this is known as a section 257 HMO ... A building is considered an HMO if it is occupied by more than one household.

 

[mainline]

No... each flat owner is a director . But there is a head lease holder .

Sounds complicated

 

[mainline]

What are the requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022?​

The requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 are focused to provide protection in buildings where a fire could lead to major consequences. AFDDs offer most benefit for arc faults which may occur in equipment plugged into the electrical installation, hence the requirement concentrates on circuits supplying socket-outlets.

Regulation 421.1.7 of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 requires AFDDs to be provided for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32 A in:

• Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB)

• Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

• Purpose-built student accommodation

• Care homes.

For all other premises, the use of AFDDs is recommended for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets not exceeding 32 A. However, this is a recommendation and not a requirement, which means it is a consideration for the designer and not something that shall be done.

What is a higher-risk building?​

A higher-risk building is now defined in Legislation. The Building Safety Act 2002 considers a higher-risk building to be at least 18 metres in height or has at least 7 storeys and contains at least 2 residential units. However, it is recognised that height and use are not the only indicators of risk.

At the time of producing BS 7671:2018+A2:2022, The Building Safety Bill was still working its way through Parliament and the term used at the time was Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB). It has since become Legislation, namely The Building Safety Act 2002, which came into force on 28th April 2022. The term HRRB has been amended to ‘higher-risk buildings’, this will need to be updated in the next Amendment to BS 7671.

When do I need to install AFDDs?​

AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

It is not a requirement to upgrade an existing circuit to include AFDDs when carrying out simple maintenance work such as like-for-like replacements. The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

Did you say the circuits have been upgraded to rcbos ?.


AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

 

[LukeD]

Sounds complicated

Like most properties ... there on leases etc and then leases have “head leases “ and even more silly stuff . These are daft money places that look of from the front , the rears are always a complete mess ! The head leas holder will be someone like “Howard de Walden etc . A major london player

 

[LukeD]

Did you say the circuits have been upgraded to rcbos ?.


AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

The apartment was re wired few years ago. All good as gold . RCBO”s on ICR etc .SPD added and 3 extra radials . All RCBO’s . All testing for EICR now . Results readings all GOOD> But the question of AFD’’s has opened a can of worms as one flat has just been passed without them (as there seems to be NO law to say they are required . And ‘this job becomes an issue as its been fed to someone that there should be AFD’s .Now its like a bloody migraine . And One I feel technically. AFD”s could be “recommended “ But cannot be used as a reason to issue a C code

 

[westward10]

Why are you involved, I really don't understand some of your posts.

 

[LukeD]

Why are you involved, I really don't understand some of your posts.

Let’s deal with the question of what’s right or wrong ...

 

[davesparks]

“Recommended “ , but not a issue for a EICR to be “failed” . As the legal requirement has been met by fitting RCBO’s

An EICR cannot 'fail' at all, it can only be satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

The issue of AFDDs should, in my opinion, be a C3 could observation if any and so not automatically result in an unsatisfactory result.

 

[LukeD]

An EICR cannot 'fail' at all, it can only be satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

The issue of AFDDs should, in my opinion, be a C3 could observation if any and so not automatically result in an unsatisfactory result.

Its a pass or no pass situation ! Like a cars MOT ...any legal jargon can be used .Buts its either passed or failed ! I thought about the C3 option but then again why even a C3 ? Both requirements for them to be used has not been proven correct as I have proven them incorrect . Building height and amount of floors . Having to tell someone how a building is measured Is weird. They thought it was from top of building down etc . Despite showing them the legal , they still say “its over 18m “ . So ,so far , no one has said they are REQUIRED within this thread .

 

[mainline]

It’s a pass or no pass situation ! Like a cars MOT ...any legal jargon can be used .Buts its either passed or failed ! I thought about the C3 option but then again why even a C3 ? Both requirements for them to be used has not been proven correct as I have proven them incorrect . Building height and amount of floors . Having to tell someone how a building is measured Is weird. They thought it was from top of building down etc . Despite showing them the legal , they still say “it’s over 18m “ . So ,so far , no one has said they are REQUIRED within this thread .

A Mot is not simply a pass or fail advisories being the equivalent of c3s.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

From post 11.

The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

So they don't need to be fitted in your case.

 

[mainline]

From post 11.

The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

So they don't need to be fitted in your case.

It is where alterations to the circuits have been done.

 

[LukeD]

A Mot is not simply a pass or fail advisories being the equivalent of c3s.

Yes C3 ,s would be advisories . But ask 1000 people what a MOT test means in regards to been able to continue to use the car . Its failed or passed . That simple . A EICR is the same ...unless its good , you cannot rent out if you are wanting to let etc . Things in life are simple ..its either right /wrong/. Legal /illegal/. Passed or failed the rest is word salad

 

[mainline]

Yes C3 ,s would be advisories . But ask 1000 people what a MOT test means in regards to been able to continue to use the car . Its failed or passed . That simple . A EICR is the same ...unless it’s good , you cannot rent out if you are wanting to let etc . Things in life are simple ..it’s either right /wrong/. Legal /illegal/. Passed or failed the rest is word salad

I can see on a mot sheet where it says fail.
I can’t see where it says the same on the Eicr one.

At the end of the day everyone understands the term Fail but using the wrong terminology does sound less professional.

It’s like many electricians use the term Buzzz bar instead of Bus bar.

Ps it’s usually the ones that have the velocity bags, designer work boots and shorts

 

[LukeD]

I can see on a mot sheet where it says fail.
I can’t see where it says the same on the Eicr one.

At the end of the day everyone understands the term Fail but using the wrong terminology does sound less professional.

It’s like many electricians use the term Buzzz bar instead of Bus bar.

Ps it’s usually the ones that have the velocity bags, designer work boots and shorts

So true !

 

[davesparks]

Its a pass or no pass situation ! Like a cars MOT ...any legal jargon can be used .Buts its either passed or failed !

It's not legal jargon, it's plain English with specific meanings.
An MOT and an EICR are different things.
An MOT is a legally required examination of a vehicle which can have a pass or fail result. If a vehicle fails an MOT it cannot legally be driven on the road (except to be driven to a test centre within reasonable distance for a retest)
An EICR is a report on the condition of an electrical installation, it describes the condition of the installation with an overall assessment of either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. You cannot pass of fail a condition report.

I thought about the C3 option but then again why even a C3 ? Both requirements for them to be used has not been proven correct as I have proven them incorrect .

If the regulations would require AFDDs to be installed if this was a new installation and the addition of AFDDs to this installation could improve safety then you give it a C3.

If you as the inspector have assessed it as not needing AFDDs then don't record anything on the report.
You are inspecting the installation and you are writing the report.

 

[davesparks]

From post 11.

The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

So they don't need to be fitted in your case.

That's irrelevant.

The question is about an EICR and that is carried out to the current edition of the wiring regulations regardless of when it was installed.

 

[davesparks]

Yes C3 ,s would be advisories . But ask 1000 people what a MOT test means in regards to been able to continue to use the car . Its failed or passed . That simple . A EICR is the same ...unless its good , you cannot rent out if you are wanting to let etc . Things in life are simple ..its either right /wrong/. Legal /illegal/. Passed or failed the rest is word salad

Yes if a vehicle fails an MOT it cannot be used on public roads.

But if an installation is found to be unsatisfactory on an EICR it is not prevented from being used, you don't isolate the installation at the end of the testing of you find it to be unsatisfactory.

 

[davesparks]

A Mot is not simply a pass or fail advisories being the equivalent of c3s.

MOT advisories are not similar to a C3 observation on an EICR.

An MOT advisory identifies items on a vehicle which are worn/deteriorated but not to the point of failing the MOT and will likely require repair before the next MOT.
Advisories are not recommendations of alterations you could make to a vehicle to improve its safety.

A C3 observation on an EICR is a recommendation for and alteration which could bead made to an installation which could improve safety.

 

[mainline]

MOT advisories are not similar to a C3 observation on an EICR.

They are similar in the respect that they are given without failing or being unsatisfactory.

 

[mainline]

Yes if a vehicle fails an MOT it cannot be used on public roads.

But if an installation is found to be unsatisfactory on an EICR it is not prevented from being used, you don't isolate the installation at the end of the testing of you find it to be unsatisfactory.

Would you leave it in a dangerous condition then ?

 

[LukeD]

for the purpose of been able to rent .A “pass “ is required as without you cannot let. Playing with words is a waste of time ! A “pass “ means you have achieved the requirements that the test requires and the test is required so the property can be rented out . Its like saying “its good to go”. People still understand the meaning .

 

[LukeD]

They are similar in the respect that they are given without failing or being unsatisfactory.

Exactly !!!

 

[LukeD]

Landlord... “So Whats the result of my EICR test in a property I am renting out “?

tester ..” Its Unsatisfactory , failed, crap , dangerous , dodgy etc


Landlord..” It failed then, I’m in the mess , what the heck , this will cost me money . I cant start renting it as the estate agents cannot market it .


Tester : Its all good, satisfactory , passed , Chicken soup . Cushtie (How do you spell that ! )

Landlord: “ Great its passed , satisfactory all good to go”

 

[davesparks]

Would you leave it in a dangerous condition then ?

I would do whatever is reasonable to reduce the danger of any C1 items, having agreed this with the customer first.
C2 items almost always get left as they are.

 

[mainline]

Landlord... “So Whats the result of my EICR test in a property I am renting out “?

tester ..” Its Unsatisfactory , failed, crap , dangerous , dodgy etc


Landlord..” It failed then, I’m in the mess , what the heck , this will cost me money . I cant start renting it as the estate agents cannot market it .


Tester : Its all good, satisfactory , passed , Chicken soup . Cushtie (How do you spell that ! )

Landlord: “ Great its passed , satisfactory all good to go”

Sorry I couldn’t make it today as my mot was unsatisfactory

 

[mainline]

I would do whatever is reasonable to reduce the danger of any C1 items, having agreed this with the customer first.
C2 items almost always get left as they are.

Guess you wouldn’t consider a situation that’s potentially dangerous and needs urgent attention in actually being so.
although giving them a piece of paper saying it is and leaving it energised.

I guess that’s where an mot inspector wouldn’t allow a car that has a major defect to be driven.

 

[davesparks]

for the purpose of been able to rent .A “pass “ is required as without you cannot let. Playing with words is a waste of time !

It's not playing with words or a waste of time, it is using the correct language to ensure your arse is covered if something goes wrong.

A “pass “ means you have achieved the requirements that the test requires and the test is required so the property can be rented out .

A "pass" means or implies that it is fully compliant, absolutely and completely safe.
"Satisfactory" means that it meets a minimum standard for safety, it is safe as far as you can reasonably see.

Landlord... “So Whats the result of my EICR test in a property I am renting out “?

tester ..” Its Unsatisfactory , failed, crap , dangerous , dodgy etc


Landlord..” It failed then, I’m in the mess , what the heck , this will cost me money . I cant start renting it as the estate agents cannot market it .


Tester : Its all good, satisfactory , passed , Chicken soup . Cushtie (How do you spell that ! )

Landlord: “ Great its passed , satisfactory all good to go”

It doesn't matter what the landlord says or how they understand your words, it matters that you, as a skilled professional have done things correctly.

 

[davesparks]

Guess you wouldn’t consider a situation that’s potentially dangerous and needs urgent attention in actually being so.

If it needs urgent attention then it is immediately dangerous and should be treated as such.

although giving them a piece of paper saying it is and leaving it energised.

If the customer authorised me to isolate it then I would do so, but otherwise an electrician has no authority to just isolate anything.

I guess that’s where an mot inspector wouldn’t allow a car that has a major defect to be driven.

An MOT inspector doesn't prevent a car from being driven in any circumstance.

 

[mainline]

An MOT inspector doesn't prevent a car from being driven in any circumstance.

An examiner can issue a pg9

To protect the authorised examiner (AE) and his staff from prosecution, the AE must ensure that, while the vehicle is in the custody of the VTS, it is not driven on the road

 

[mainline]

When a car fails a mot for a major defect, then it is a criminal offence to drive it on a public road.

 

[mainline]

If it needs urgent attention then it is immediately dangerous and should be treated as such.

You said #36 that C2 items almost always get left as they are.
C2 =Potentially dangerous – urgent remedial action required.

an electrician has no authority to just isolate anything.

That depends on whom the electrician works for.

An MOT inspector doesn't prevent a car from being driven in any circumstance.

You said #29 Yes, if a vehicle fails an MOT it cannot be used on public roads.

 

[LukeD]

You said #36 that C2 items almost always get left as they are.
C2 =Potentially dangerous – urgent remedial action required.

That depends on whom the electrician works for.


You said #29 Yes, if a vehicle fails an MOT it cannot be used on public roads.

Unless you live in Bradford etc !