Bullying V horseplay

[Pete999]

Seeing as my last post got such a good reception, I though well Pete you're on a roll lets give it another go, I haven't been on what constitutes a site for a long time now, and did see a lot of Apprentices getting bullied, me for example, when I was a mere Lad, oh and believe it or not I walked out on a part time job a few weeks ago for being accused of bullying, anyone who knows me will tell you it's virtually impossible for me to be classed as a bully but that's another story.

Just wondered what experience you blokes and blokesses have encountered.

 

[markc123]

I'm gonna face a torrent abuse for my views here probably, but this is just my opinion - not trying to upset anyone. Are we talking physical or non-physical here?

Unless its physical then bullying to me really is a nuisance word thats chucked around willy nilly. If someone calls me a **** or whatever - of if 10people call me a ****, then i just ignore them and crack on with what I'm doing. Some people are far too sensitive, and get themselves worked up over someone arguing with them. In any trade you need a thick skin imo.

If it is physical then you either report whoever, or get out of the situation as fast as you can and take further action from a distance.

Mark.

 

[UNG]

Unfortunately in this PC world we now live in it becoming harder to offer advice or to criticise without someone taking offence even if they are not directly involved
The onsite banter is now very often taken the wrong way and the "apprentices trade tests and stores visits" are deemed to be some form of cruelity
Every reception desk you go to has some form of warning against staff abuse that has varying threshold levels depending on how helpful the staff want to be, even raising your voice is taken as abuse or bullying by some.
There are people who can give it out but can't take it, it takes all sorts to make the world go round and whoever coined the phrase "politically correct" has a lot to answer for
A sense of humour is going the same way as common sense and it won't be long before it is total banished in public

 

[Spoon]

It's hard to say. You can't say that all verbal abuse is not bullying. It all depends on what was said, about who and in what manner. Say what you like about me, but say things about my kids or missus and that's a different matter....

 

[SS-2015]

Yeah I agree, You can't get the slightest bit upset with someone these days without it being classed as abusive.
Abusive behavior/Bulling in my mind is something that is ongoing very personal and hurtful. Telling someone they're a C*** because they have done something C***ish is how you learn in my opinion.
A company I have a lot of dealings with has around 6 young apprentices and they are all so sheepish and scared of everything and it's the Mamby Pamby world they're bought up in that does it to them.

If you're going to work in a blokes world which is invariably what most trade jobs are then you need to man up!

 

[Pete999]

It's hard to say. You can't say that all verbal abuse is not bullying. It all depends on what was said, about who and in what manner. Say what you like about me, but say things about my kids or missus and that's a different matter....

I used to work overseas a lot with small engineering teams, about 6 blokes, for periods of about 8 to 10 weeks depending on the job, bearing in mind some of these places I went to weren't the holiday resorts like Spain etc.
There was one particular guy who was a master at winding people up, this to me was bullying as it continued after work, and believe it did get you down, you couldn't smack him otherwise you would be sent home to pick your cards up, although on one occasion he was taken round the back of the hut and given a stiff talking to, up close and personal, no name no pack drill, he didn't learn though and as far as I know he is still at it, one day someone will hang one on him.

 

[Spoon]

But then are is the other side where a worker is a c*** and likes to bully apprentices ( cause he's a low life and tried to make himself feel better ). Never been bullied at work. I guy did try once. Kept saying comments about my girlfriend (now my missus.) I got bored and said I was going to dump her and sh*g his daughter instead.... He didn't say anything again.

 

[ruston]

Fair hard criticism from someone you respect is a lesson you never forget.
Banter is one thing , but when it gets to be a vendetta is when it gets serious.
I have never worked in a group without banter, it is usually a fairly unoffensive way of making your feelings known.
Bullies should be removed from sites; no if's no but's.

 

[Andy78]

It's so hard to say what constitutes bullying and what is banter. A lot of it can depend on the person saying it and how it's said for example. Some guys I have worked with have called me allsorts and I know they are just messing, but I wouldn't take exactly the same things said by others. A lot of it is to do with context.

I would definitely say that verbal bullying and the way people act can be just as bad as physical bullying though. Both need to be viewed the same if a person is being victimised. There's site banter and there's being downright nasty.

One example of where the line was crossed was with a lad known as "Dirty Dick" He was a weirdo. Came to work in his lasses knickers, used to take a dump in the site toilets, naked, with all the doors open, got caught second fixing outside lights wearing nowt but a toolbelt, took dumps in his own toolbox..... you get the picture.
A younger spark was on his knees second fixing sockets. Dick walked up behind him, flopped his tail out on the lads shoulder, then called his name so he turned his head and got a faceful. The young lad was not impressed and Dick learned he had taken it too far with this guy. Getting pinned against a wall with a termy driver up at your throat will do that for you.

 

[ian.settle1]

It's so hard to say what constitutes bullying and what is banter. A lot of it can depend on the person saying it and how it's said for example. Some guys I have worked with have called me allsorts and I know they are just messing, but I wouldn't take exactly the same things said by others. A lot of it is to do with context.

I would definitely say that verbal bullying and the way people act can be just as bad as physical bullying though. Both need to be viewed the same if a person is being victimised. There's site banter and there's being downright nasty.

One example of where the line was crossed was with a lad known as "Dirty Dick" He was a weirdo. Came to work in his lasses knickers, used to take a dump in the site toilets, naked, with all the doors open, got caught second fixing outside lights wearing nowt but a toolbelt, took dumps in his own toolbox..... you get the picture.
A younger spark was on his knees second fixing sockets. Dick walked up behind him, flopped his tail out on the lads shoulder, then called his name so he turned his head and got a faceful. The young lad was not impressed and Dick learned he had taken it too far with this guy. Getting pinned against a wall with a termy driver up at your throat will do that for you.

Sounds like this guy has got a slate loose.

 

[Andy78]

Sounds like this guy has got a slate loose.

Lol, 95% of the time he was a completely normal guy to get on with and work with. I think he was just a rampant pervert that had never been discouraged, just ignored. Just had quite a few issues with accepted social boundaries.... lol

Believe me, he knew he had gone beyond a laugh with this incident. Like a church mouse for the next fortnight.

 

[Spoon]

Aren't the majority of electrical engineers rampant perverts....

 

[ruston]

That's a shocking revelation.:blush5:

 

[Andy78]

Aren't the majority of electrical engineers rampant perverts....

No idea, but he certainly was no engineer. He tried an end-in-ear but that's what got him threatened....

 

[Leesparkykent]

Banter and a little bit of abuse when they deserve it is character building For the young apprentices :wink_smile:.

 

[Andy78]

Banter and a little bit of abuse when they deserve it is character building For the young apprentices :wink_smile:.

Some of the stories I have heard from guys that will now be retired about their apprenticeships ..... if some of that stuff went on now people would be going to court !!

 

[Leesparkykent]

Some of the stories I have heard from guys that will now be retired about their apprenticeships ..... if some of that stuff went on now people would be going to court !!

I've heard some proper tails as well, like you say couldn't get away with it now! I took it on my apprenticeship, it was all part of it lol.

 

[ruston]

Blackjack (tarry grease) around the privates was a common one.

 

[Andy78]

Blackjack (tarry grease) around the privates was a common one.

Red lead I've heard, as a birthday treat.

 

[ruston]

Red lead I've heard, as a birthday treat.

Now that is cruel.

 

[Aurai]

This may help

Bullying and harassment are very simply, and only defined as how the recipient sees it. No matter what you meant as a joke, for instance, if it is received as humiliating or degrading by the recipient, it is bullying or harassment.

However, it is still not bullying or harassment until the recipient actually complains. In a work context.

This means that banter, in all its workplace forms, can continue, until the person on the end of it asks you to stop. Only and only then, should you continue, are you a bully. Employers, should set up the communication channels and encourage people to come forward if they feel bullied enough to want to complain.

Sadly, the usual British situation is that the bullied, may not know how to complain, then may tolerate the treatment until they blow! Or, more usually, move on.

All of us have a responsibility to protect people who need protecting, of course, but it is a jungle out there.

 

[Pete999]

Some of the stories I have heard from guys that will now be retired about their apprenticeships ..... if some of that stuff went on now people would be going to court !!

I.ll tel you a story, I had an Apprentice straight from School, bit of a Muppet, but weren't we all, anyway he hated getting his barnet dirty, and we were rewiring council houses so you get the picture.
He was really peeing me off in this particular house and as we were finishing he did something stupid, more stupid than usual, I asked him where my pliers were, and told him to find them or else, under the floor he went down went the flooring great big chest and carpet on top, al you could hear was the little dipstick screaming.As you say if I did it now I would be had up for abuse, it was funny for a while, but soon realised that perhaps I had gone to far so I let him out, not happy he wasn't worried about spiders in his hair. I felt bad afterwards.

 

[Diddy]

Well I served my time with a local contractor where he had say upto 100 men on the books. So as an apprentice you were rotated around jobs and mentors (sparks) to give you an overall grasp of being a spark. In my time I was humiliated in front of women on nights out by a guy who was just an arrogant insecure ----. I have been well into giving and taking banter.....I even had my privates painted black.....but I deserved that lol. I have met all types in my time......Its just like in life you will come across all sorts....it is how you deal with it that matters. Number one for me is don't wallow and take a mans apology at face value - these things make getting through the apprenticeship easier.

 

[sparksburnout]

This may help

Bullying and harassment are very simply, and only defined as how the recipient sees it. No matter what you meant as a joke, for instance, if it is received as humiliating or degrading by the recipient, it is bullying or harassment.

However, it is still not bullying or harassment until the recipient actually complains. In a work context.

This means that banter, in all its workplace forms, can continue, until the person on the end of it asks you to stop. Only and only then, should you continue, are you a bully. Employers, should set up the communication channels and encourage people to come forward if they feel bullied enough to want to complain.

Sadly, the usual British situation is that the bullied, may not know how to complain, then may tolerate the treatment until they blow! Or, more usually, move on.

All of us have a responsibility to protect people who need protecting, of course, but it is a jungle out there.

Sorry mate, thats a load of b******s

 

[Adam W]

When I was at college we were advised not to engage in horseplay at all, the reason being horseplay has a habit of getting out of hand, and it can't get out of hand if it doesn't start in the first place.
I've seen it happen in the workplace - light-hearted 'banter' snowballs, push comes to shove, then before you know where you are someone has had a punch in the balls.
A laugh and a joke is one thing, but constantly having one at the expense of a colleague is stepping into dangerous territory.

 

[Adam W]

Sorry mate, thats a load of b******s

I disagree.

 

[7029 dave]

Banter is one thing, when it becomes personal that is an other.

 

[sparksburnout]

I disagree.

I might have misread your posts Adam but you can't have it both ways. You are right, if it doesn't start in the first place, it can't get out of hand. It is NOT up to the recipient to complain when it gets too much, they may not want to because they may feel that it will compromise them, it is up to the (supposedly) more mature and experienced of us to know when to stop and how far to take things with an individual. Some cocky young so and so's need it, some need to be treated with a different approach, but it is a responsibility on the senior person, that's what it is all about.

 

[Adam W]

I might have misread your posts Adam but you can't have it both ways. You are right, if it doesn't start in the first place, it can't get out of hand. It is NOT up to the recipient to complain when it gets too much, they may not want to because they may feel that it will compromise them, it is up to the (supposedly) more mature and experienced of us to know when to stop and how far to take things with an individual. Some cocky young so and so's need it, some need to be treated with a different approach, but it is a responsibility on the senior person, that's what it is all about.

It sounds like you've confused someone else's posts with mine, but it shouldn't get to the stage where someone has to complain. If it's believed that "Some cocky young so and so's need it" then the chances are they will have started it, which they shouldn't have done. Maybe in the past it was seen as the place of "a senior person" to end a cocky young apprentice's shenanigans, but I've worked with cocky middle-aged former electrical engineers who have needed putting in their place where practical jokes would have seemed inappropriate. Added to that youngsters nowadays seem more likely to keep going in the belief that they know it all and can 'win'. Again, in the past it was seen as a rite of passage to play practical jokes on the apprentice, while now they might be more likely to retaliate, as it could be argued they are entitled to.

 

[sparksburnout]

Probably Adam, I have been at the home brew. I thought you were agreeing with Aurai, who's comments are wrong in my opinion.
As you say, someone should not have to complain, that is a situation that should have been banished a long time ago. A lot of the guys who "dish it out" are the ones who can't take it, and that is true bullying.

 

[Harni]

I think the whole thing boils down to gauging how the person can handle banter. For example, you can call me any name under the sun and if i know its in jest, ill just return it probably worse but there are some people out there who don't like anything like that at all. I think if you are going to dish out something, its your responsibility to gauge how that person will react and the main thing is if they make it clear they don't like it, you stop. Simple!

 

[M-Ty]

I am not an electrician, but work in electronics manufacturing.
My employer has policies that we and the installers are obliged to give our written commitment to annually.
It's not a case of "if they make it clear they don't like it, you stop."
Nor even that you could if they made it clear they would like it!
It is absolutely strictly forbidden on pain of summary dismissal.
The workforce is mature (bordering on elderly, even, including me!) and the odd apprentice who did not learn to act maturely left to find a more suitable, exciting and better-paid job, with no ill-feelings, which was for the best for all concerned.

 

[Bobster]

I am not an electrician, but work in electronics manufacturing.
My employer has policies that we and the installers are obliged to give our written commitment to annually.
It's not a case of "if they make it clear they don't like it, you stop."
Nor even that you could if they made it clear they would like it!
It is absolutely strictly forbidden on pain of summary dismissal.
The workforce is mature (bordering on elderly, even, including me!) and the odd apprentice who did not learn to act maturely left to find a more suitable, exciting and better-paid job, with no ill-feelings, which was for the best for all concerned.

That sounds like a truley boring place to work.

 

[ruston]

That sounds like a truley boring place to work.

Sounds like bullying to me.

 

[Bobster]

Sounds like bullying to me.

You'll have gone through the same quarry initiations I did... That wouldn't be allowed anymore.

Thing was, everyone had it done to them it was indiscriminate. A sort of rite of passage.

My mentor was a nice bloke, yeah he played jokes. It was called character building ha!

 

[ifindoubtdont]

I agree with Aurai, it's not what is said or done or from who, but how it is received. I have been on the receiving end of bullying and harassment, it went on for years and it was not until the company doctor spotted it that something was done. I ended up taking early retirement and the manager responsible for the bullying and harassment lost their job. I now worship the ground that manager has got coming to them. This was eight years ago and yes I'm still very bitter about it.

 

[Adam W]

Probably Adam, I have been at the home brew. I thought you were agreeing with Aurai, who's comments are wrong in my opinion.
As you say, someone should not have to complain, that is a situation that should have been banished a long time ago. A lot of the guys who "dish it out" are the ones who can't take it, and that is true bullying.

I didn't agree as such, I just disagreed with your opinion that his post was a "load of b******s".

 

[Aurai]

I hope this one helps

Wearing one of my other caps, a female caller complained to me that the Apprentice manager had seduced another female trainee. My caller explained that she had a consenting relationship with the manager the previous year, though, that had ended. Now my caller could see the pattern emerging. These are all professional adults, by the way. I had to ask if my caller was making a complaint, she was not prepared to. I asked her to advise the other trainee to complain, in confidence, and I was advised that the other trainee was perfectly happy with her relationship. There was no case to deal with.

i am not saying that the employer could turn a total blind eye to these matters either, but that would require other routes in the absence of any complaint.

Thank you.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

I was at once place and watch 3 grown men take the p out of a girl right from school and it was going over her head.
So I stood behind them and told to get on with their job.
Well they took this as a que to go for me.
I gave it back, and then one of them asked me out for a fight, this guy was in his Late 40s and we'll put of shape
I stood there a bit shocked by this, and figured. What the hell Ok
The guy walked off
I reported this to a manager who said it wasn't his problem, and to report it to his manager
I did that and his managers comment was he would of had me (seems they were ex school mates)
Pointed out he was dam old and I would f easy kill him
For me using them words I got the sack
Hard to find a job when you have been sacked

I still don't like bullies and will stand up to them.. But I do think that some are a bit more sensitive than others and we can't say some things as it might be class as racist.. I normally stay quiet till I know people... Because in the UK we can joke by calling someone a name or telling them to f.off and not mean it in a.nasty way

 

[Mighty Chum]

I'm a trainee I guess. Started in the electrical side of site works at 27, 28 now and just starting college. At my age it seems like most sparks, mentors or what have you, aren't trying to break me and remake me. They know I'm a man grown and that my personality is ingrained. Sometimes I get talked to like I'm an idiot when I do something that an experienced tradesman would know, or ask a question that is idiotic once thought about. For me that's actually a great way to hammer things home to me. I know that to them it's as obvious as night following day so that's sparked the tone, yet I am able to reason internally that I don't have the experience so don't take it personally, instead listen and absorb the answer and don't repeat the mistake.

With the youngsters I've noticed they do the same but some of them will also try to alter the apprentice's mind set too. Let's be honest a lot of them are fresh from school where they were likely Berty Big ********, trying to project that persona into a mans world which ultimately, if not curbed, will get them hurt by a man grown who can't control his temper. I think that's a solid way to behave and is beneficial for them.

However some of the sparks forget you can't just break them, you've got to remake them. One lad in particular on my firm is, without pulling punches, terrible. Third year, no drive, no independence, no initiative. Often talked about behind his back and to his face as being worthless. He was assigned to me and my Sparks for one job, we'd heard all the sniping and **** talking about him before meeting him so were expecting essentially a sweeping monkey. We were surprised. The kid was slow, lacked knowledge and needed to be watched to make sure once he finished a task he moved on to the next, we mugged him off and did the usual "Go ask X for a long wait" etc. We also encouraged him, prompted him to make decisions for himself, let him **** up, explain why it was ****ed, then let him fix it. Within a few weeks that kid didn't become a new person but clearly grew and was on track to having potential.

I guess after that long winded rant what I'm trying to say is, getting mugged off, asked to make the teas, sweep up and occasionally getting berated for mistakes is an apprentice's lot in life. However if no one is also giving the other side of the coin, encouraging them, trying to instill solid traits in them etc, then you're not just having fun. You're a bully.