Teaser for the Newbies...

[Darkwood]

Not for the experienced here a teaser only for the apprentice and newly qualified.

I have a jet wash with manufacturer supplied with a 230v 16amp 3pin blue industrial trailer plug on it, my problem is that the socket outlet i have is 32amp thus the plug won't fit.

Question - can i simply change the plug from 16amp to 32amp .... the flex is 3core 1.5mm.

Answer and reasoning please no simple Yes or No!

 

[telectrix]

i refuse to answer this on the grounds that it may make me look a pratt.! :troll:

 

[Silly Sausage]

Haha...me too!
I think it's just a clever ruse by DW to find the answer to a question he daredn't ask!

 

[Darkwood]

You know it aint for you Tel but would be interested to see you answer as its a good question which has the ability to make you question your own thoughts

 

[Darkwood]

Ill give you all the full correct answer as i expect many conflicting answers from the newbies so it would be silly of me to ask the inexperienced to mask a issue i didn't know myself.... :smug2: .... it seems though i may have got a few more older grey cells twitching amongst you lol

 

[7029 dave]

DW can't wait for some A's.I will say yes and no will give my reasoning but will hold back for now lol.

 

[Darkwood]

Come on lads/lasses get some bold guessing done its not to demoralize you as i chose the nature of the question to even have the pro questioning their knowledge.

 

[telectrix]

i done it by pm so i'd not look a ----- on open forum.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I'd buy something...

 

[stuartcourt]

I was going for a NO as thought if changed then you would have a 16 amp machine running on 32 amp (come on I am ready :45

 

[Darkwood]

Ill dish the answer in an hour giving room for thinking space and no clues till then

 

[moospark]

Why not? It'll only draw the current it wants?

 

[stuartcourt]

An hour to think about what I said, thats harsh DW

 

[Darkwood]

Can we provide any reg no's to back up any comments so we are showing that we are not just randomly guessing even if your guesses may or may not be correct

 

[not clever]

Vicar of dibley moment

No no no no no no yes

Good question

 

[Benjamiin]

Regulation 541.8.436.769954223590.87549004.765 says do what you want, because if you dont then john down the pub who once wired an outside light on a plug top will do it!

 

[D Skelton]

My answer: Yes, but, as the plug is unfused I would be looking to make sure that an adiabatic equation was satisfied before I did. Specifically t ≤ (S[SUP]2 [/SUP]x k[SUP]2[/SUP])/I[SUP]2[/SUP]

Quite comfortable that I'm correct but I'm not too proud to look a ----- if I am indeed wrong. I'm happy to learn the error of my ways

Got me thinking though DW, something I've been doing less of these days on 'ere. Much appreciated!

 

[Darkwood]

Regulation 541.8.436.769954223590.87549004.765 says do what you want, because if you dont then john down the pub who once wired an outside light on a plug top will do it!

This regulation was omitted in the 15th edition and John down the pub also uses BS regs but im sure it stands for something different.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Well this is a interesting question!

I shall not be providing any reg numbers as I dont have a book to hand but I shall say no.
I shall withhold my reasons because I am evil and its tea time

 

[Tiny Spark]

Regulation 541.8.436.769954223590.87549004.765 says do what you want, because if you dont then john down the pub who once wired an outside light on a plug top will do it!

And what is wrong with plugging a outside light in to a socket circuit with a plug top?
Assuming it is adequately protected of course

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Ever tried clamping 1.5 in a 32A plug? Ordinary cheapo plugs don't make a good job of it. How would I know that?

 

[Victor]

Can you just change the plug?

Well are you qualified and have you got your part P?

If so then yes, if not, consult a qualified electrician!

LOL

 

[Tiny Spark]

Ever tried clamping 1.5 in a 32A plug? Ordinary cheapo plugs don't make a good job of it. How would I know that?

Double it over a few times and it will be fine

 

[Benjamiin]

Open up the jet wash, connect the earth with the live and do the same at the plug top, youve got a 3mm live and a 1.5mm neutral, job done, earth's are over rated anyway!!!

 

[Darkwood]

Well the hour is up so here it is ...

With ref' to 430.1 note 4 which states any flexible cables connecting equipment by plugs and sockets to a fixed installation are outside the scope of the BS 7671 with regards to overload protection hence you can see a 13amp fuse on a Vac but the flex is only 0.75mm or 1mm.

The flex fitted by the manufacturer is subject to their own guidelines and spec'd in accordance to the max load the appliance can draw, care to be taken that a standard fused plug top isn't fitted here as the plug top fuse may provide the protection for the flex and appliance.

My example was using an un-fused plug thus all measures will have been taken to ensure maximum current does not exceed flex rating be it motor overload, thermal fusing or control fusing... so the answer to my example is yes i can just up rate the plug top and this would be applicable most of the time but as i said earlier an appliance with a fused plug top will need to be considered with a bit more thought as the fuse could be in place for S/C protection only but may be providing overload protection too.

 

[Tiny Spark]

I would not class a jet wash as a fixed installation?
Unless it was one of those large industrial ones that cant be moved?

So assuming it was portable I would stand by my answer of no as a 1.5mm flex can carry 16A hence would be fitted with a 16A plug which would be fitted to a socket protected by a 16A breaker.
You could change the plug to a 32A plug and plug it into a 32A socket which had been protected by a 16A breaker and dedicated to such a use, However that would not stop someone removing it and pluging it into a full 32A protected socket outlet which would not offer the protection that the flex requires.

Thats my thoughts on the matter anyways LOL

 

[Darkwood]

I would not class a jet wash as a fixed installation?
Unless it was one of those large industrial ones that cant be moved?

So assuming it was portable I would stand by my answer of no as a 1.5mm flex can carry 16A hence would be fitted with a 16A plug which would be fitted to a socket protected by a 16A breaker.
You could change the plug to a 32A plug and plug it into a 32A socket which had been protected by a 16A breaker and dedicated to such a use, However that would not stop someone removing it and pluging it into a full 32A protected socket outlet which would not offer the protection that the flex requires.

Thats my thoughts on the matter anyways LOL

Never said it was fixed and if the manufacturer has an unfused plug fitted it is their responsibility to ensure the flex is suitable for the max current demand even in fault conditions ... they dont know that the socket you plug into is to BS standards and correctly installed so all overload protections necessary would be fitted to their appliance if deemed necessary, this is outside of the BS7671 so the manufacturers can't rely on an unknown system their product may be connected to, if they had a fused plug top this may provide the necessary protection if the item had a risk of running overloaded.

 

[plugsandsparks]

On a pragmatic level, i would look closely at the 32A plug to make sure the cord grip works on a smaller cable and that the terminals or spring clamp can actually make a good contact with the cable core.
Yes you could downgrade the breaker to a more suitable one, which i probably would do if the machine was largely going to be used in that location.

 

[Tiny Spark]

With ref' to 430.1 note 4 which states any flexible cables connecting equipment by plugs and sockets to a fixed installation are outside the scope of the BS 7671

You just did LOL

 

[ian.settle1]

This regulation was omitted in the 15th edition and John down the pub also uses BS regs but im sure it stands for something different.

BS = Beer and Smokes

 

[Darkwood]

You just did LOL

My Opening Post was regarding plugging flexed equipment into the fixed installation and this reg expresses that the regulations regarding overload protection do not extend to 'in my case' the jet wash so the flex does not necessarily have to be increased to 4mm/6mm due the the plug top been increased and the nature of the circuit having a front end 32amp protection ... its often a mistake i see where chapter 43 is extended to portable equipment with plugs on ... i was defining the boundaries with my original question.

To note here manufacturers guidelines will overrule anything suggested here and the only concern you should have is if the equipment has zero overload protection due to the nature of the load and dosn't require it that the S/C protection still meets requirements of any flex left at its original size as the time/curve of the front end device with be longer. This could be an issue with long flexes.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Ahh wait my apologies mis read the quote

But yes I agree with what you are saying.
However me being me I would just change the socket to a 16A and then there is no questions or worries as to whats plugged in.
Personally I dont trust manufacturers of anything when it comes to these sort of things.

When I used to do lots of PAT I came accross many items which I was dumfounded by including badly terminated plugs on a brand new extension lead and the worst one ever was a class 1 popcorn maker with the bonding missing totally!

 

[Darkwood]

When supplying something into our market it has to meet the standards under which it is designed where you find issues when PA-Testing its more often than not been tampered with, 2nd hand or very old and not to modern standards in which case you will do the necessary 'FAIL'! if need be but yes know what your on about ive seen some beauties in my time ... and i hate crap been brought in from abroad that has never even seen a regulation let alone safety standards.

 

[Tiny Spark]

When supplying something into our market it has to meet the standards under which it is designed where you find issues when PA-Testing its more often than not been tampered with, 2nd hand or very old and not to modern standards in which case you will do the necessary 'FAIL'! if need be but yes know what your on about ive seen some beauties in my time ... and i hate crap been brought in from abroad that has never even seen a regulation let alone safety standards.

Well in the instance of the popcorn maker the whole site seemed to have a total disregard for safety so ime not really surprised that this thing was probably brought in from china with a exec on a business trip.

 

[Badged01]

.... with manufacturer supplied .... 16amp plug ....

Missed the debate but to throw in my 2 pence worth. Without reading the manufacturers instructions to confirm, isnt the fact that the manufacturer has fitted a 16A plug implying a max 16A circuit to be connected to? Taking 1.5mm multicore having a max rating of 22A?

 

[bigspark17]

If the manufacteres instructions state 16amp supply how can you see it acceptable to put it on a 32amp supply.?? Surely any1 on here would change the 32amp socket to 16amp and the mcb to a 16amp?

 

[Darkwood]

Missed the debate but to throw in my 2 pence worth. Without reading the manufacturers instructions to confirm, isnt the fact that the manufacturer has fitted a 16A plug implying a max 16A circuit to be connected to? Taking 1.5mm multicore having a max rating of 22A?

where do you get 22 amps from.... and to note specified cables are rated differently. The manufacturers have to abide by their own standards if they fit a 16amp plug on as it dosnt have fusing they will need to ensure protection within their equipment they cant rely on the installation it is plugged into so my posts hold ground.

 

[Darkwood]

If the manufacteres instructions state 16amp supply how can you see it acceptable to put it on a 32amp supply.?? Surely any1 on here would change the 32amp socket to 16amp and the mcb to a 16amp?

when a manufacturers instructions state a 16amp supply its a supply requirement that that circuit can deliver 16amps not that is protected by a 16amp fuse.... again their equipment falls under their own BS standards so stop applying it to equipment plugged into a circuit .. read the full thread this has been covered.

 

[Rockingit]

You still haven't told us Tels answer!...........

 

[telectrix]

ok,m i'll come clean. my answer was preferably to fit a 16A socket on a 16A or 20A type C breaker ( as the jet wash incorporates a motor), or alternatively, class it as a fixed load and omit OCP and firt a 32A plug temporarily. as darkwood pointed out, the omission of OCP should only apply to fixed-wierd equipment.