Excessive??? Compact fluorescents failing.

[GBDamo]

Would like to tap into the hive mind a bit.

A customer has approximately seventy suspended ceiling modular lights with TL5C circular fluorescents in and is calling us out roughly every six weeks to change lamps, five or six at a time.

Averaging out gives a lamp life of about 18 months which I don’t think is too bad. No one fitting is constantly blowing lamps.

The fittings are five years old and already a few ballasts have failed.

They have asked me to “test” them to see why the lamps are blowing so frequently.

I have noticed singe marks around the lamp holder and some of the internals are showing signs of heat damage.

Other than ballast output/input and general tightness of connections and lampholder what else would you be looking for?

Or are they just reaching their age and are due replacement?

 

[Dillb]

How are they switched on and off and at what frequency are they switched on/off?

 

[SparkyChick]

Check for a mismatch in lamp/fitting type? As I understand it, some of the newer tubes are not suitable for use with older control gear (they prefer high frequency electronic ballasts) and vice versa.

 

[telectrix]

quote to replace the lot with LED. kerrchingg.

 

[westward10]

They should cut their losses and fit led, cheaper to run and little in the need of maintenance.

 

[GBDamo]

quote to replace the lot with LED. kerrchingg.

This is already done but getting push back from the top.

 

[GBDamo]

All are high frequency ballasts already. But good shout.

Check for a mismatch in lamp/fitting type? As I understand it, some of the newer tubes are not suitable for use with older control gear (they prefer high frequency electronic ballasts) and vice versa.

llll

 

[westward10]

Demonstrate in one area the benefits of led this may then encourage them to have all of them done.

 

[GBDamo]

How are they switched on and off and at what frequency are they switched on/off?

They’re all PIR with fish key override to the on position.

To be honest it was my first look at these this morning and immediately thought LED the lot. Don’t know too much about the failure rate or if there has been a significant change.

Think the manageress just likes looking at my --- when up the steps.

 

[The Ghost]

This may be a power quality issue. That is far too many breakdowns. Have you ascertained the supply voltage or spoken to the manufacturers?

 

[GBDamo]

Demonstrate in one area the benefits of led this may then encourage them to have all of them done.

Done that today, replaced four in an office and reused the working ones elsewhere.

 

[GBDamo]

No to both but will check and give the manufacturer a bell.

Number one on the list of things to check tomorrow.

Cheers

This may be a power quality issue. That is far too many breakdowns. Have you ascertained the supply voltage or spoken to the manufacturers?

to

 

[Nigel]

This is already done but getting push back from the top.

Just make sure they understand the the drivers will only have a design life of five years.

 

[GBDamo]

How does that compare with a HF ballast though.

The panels I use at the moment are NVC which come with a five year guarantee but to be honest I fit what the wholesalers have. Can’t believe there’s that much difference.

Just make sure they understand the the drivers will only have a design life of five years.

 

[Darkwood]

A hefty amount of posts removed, the OP is asking a question and some member are not interesting in helping out and posting to satisfy there boredom I suspect, let's try keep the thread on track as I suspect the OP is looking for help not a barrage of pointless responses, videos or pics that only drag the thread of course.
If you want to respond further then stay on topic please.

 

[Nigel]

How does that compare with a HF ballast though.

The panels I use at the moment are NVC which come with a five year guarantee but to be honest I fit what the wholesalers have. Can’t believe there’s that much difference.

There is not to be far but your client may be expecting no maintenence for the next 20 years.

They just need a bit of educating sometimes. LEDs are sold as good for 20 years but most people outside of the trade don’t factor in driver replacement.

 

[gnuuser]

Demonstrate in one area the benefits of led this may then encourage them to have all of them done.

agree cost savings per year can be a deciding factor.
went from incandescent directly to led in my home and the cost savings was over $500 a year!

 

[gnuuser]

cfl and other ballasts produce a lot of heat and often people insulate around them and they cannot cool of sufficiently! this can lead to early failure of both the lamps and ballasts (Ive seen this often with the inset can type fixtures) the spiral cfl's would get so hot you would burn your fingers trying to change one.
while led's do produce some heat their lifespan can be prolonged by keeping the insulation away from them as well.

 

[Toneyz]

Here we go.

More of the same pointless video's.

A hefty amount of posts removed, the OP is asking a question and some member are not interesting in helping out and posting to satisfy there boredom I suspect, let's try keep the thread on track as I suspect the OP is looking for help not a barrage of pointless responses, videos or pics that only drag the thread of course.
If you want to respond further then stay on topic please.

Well put fed up of the pointless videos.

 

[Nigel]

agree cost savings per year can be a deciding factor.
went from incandescent directly to led in my home and the cost savings was over $500 a year!

Blimey how big is your house and how often do you have the lights on?

 

[Dave OCD]

If the flourescents are being operated frequently [via the PIR's rather than manually on for long periods of time] then that will certainly reduce lamp life. I've also found though over the years that an awful lot of HF control gear is rubbish compared to the old school magnetic ballasts and operational life can be very short.

 

[Davisonp]

How long are the lights on for with the PIR? A very short on off time can significantly shorten the life of a fluorescent lamp. I have been told 15 minutes minimum. I have also had one site where Osram 28W 2D lamps were only lasting 6 months in 35 fittings, having the first ballast go, I changed to Tridonic and that lamp has lasted one and a half years. it was a cheep set of fluorescent fittings.

 

[GBDamo]

If the flourescents are being operated frequently [via the PIR's rather than manually on for long periods of time] then that will certainly reduce lamp life. I've also found though over the years that an awful lot of HF control gear is rubbish compared to the old school magnetic ballasts and operational life can be very short.

This makes sense to me, would you expect a HF ballast to fail slowly causing lamp failure or just go?

 

[GBDamo]

How long are the lights on for with the PIR? A very short on off time can significantly shorten the life of a fluorescent lamp. I have been told 15 minutes minimum. I have also had one site where Osram 28W 2D lamps were only lasting 6 months in 35 fittings, having the first ballast go, I changed to Tridonic and that lamp has lasted one and a half years. it was a cheep set of fluorescent fittings.

Will be investigating PIR timing tomorrow and if necessary setting them to 30 mins.

Number two on my list.... now

 

[gnuuser]

2600 square feet but has 2 stories 14 rooms total, we rent out the upstairs.
gas furnace electric dryer.

 

[Dave OCD]

This makes sense to me, would you expect a HF ballast to fail slowly causing lamp failure or just go?

In my experience they just fail suddenly mate, cheap and nasty components I expect.

 

[GBDamo]

In my experience they just fail suddenly mate, cheap and nasty components I expect.

Cheers, won’t try that line of BS then.

 

[GBDamo]

A little controversial maybe but what are people’s thoughts on buying components and converting the existing fittings to LED?

Would any CE raiting would be voided?

 

[gnuuser]

that Im not sure of But I imagine retrofit kits are usually approved providing the are installed correctly. But in most cases its probably cheaper to replace the entire fitting.

 

[Midwest]

A hefty amount of posts removed, the OP is asking a question and some member are not interesting in helping out and posting to satisfy there boredom I suspect, let's try keep the thread on track as I suspect the OP is looking for help not a barrage of pointless responses, videos or pics that only drag the thread of course.
If you want to respond further then stay on topic please.

I dunno darkward, laughter eases the savage breast. Its just how far one takes it.

 

[The Ghost]

I just wonder if the circuit the HF gear is on is mixed with old starter in another area. The two types do not get on well. Apparently transient voltages are not liked by HF. Is there any other gear around the (office/unit/warehouse???) that may cause a similar effect?

 

[Darkwood]

I dunno darkward, laughter eases the savage breast. Its just how far one takes it.

Yes it may but we have forum sections and open threads for such banter, my gripe is derailing someone else's thread and staff having to remove 12 posts that have nothing to do with what the OP posted and especially when he still online at the time replying and trying to answer questions put to him.

 

[GBDamo]

I just wonder if the circuit the HF gear is on is mixed with old starter in another area. The two types do not get on well. Apparently transient voltages are not liked by HF. Is there any other gear around the (office/unit/warehouse???) that may cause a similar effect?

No Vort, the whole place was refitted five years ago.

A mix of these TL5Cs and, T5s and some rare as hens teeth Phillips PL-R compact fluorescents. But importantly all HF.

It’s really only the TL5Cs that are failing.

 

[GBDamo]

Yes it may but we have forum sections and open threads for such banter, my gripe is derailing someone else's thread and staff having to remove 12 posts that have nothing to do with what the OP posted and especially when he still online at the time replying and trying to answer questions put to him.

Can someone delete these distracting posts that are explaining why distracting posts are distracting. ;-)

 

[GBDamo]

As an aside why have a twin lamp fitting fed using a single HF ballast, one lamp fails the whole fitting is down.

 

[The Ghost]

Ok might sound silly or too easy but the TL5C is rated for 22-42w they aren't putting in the 17w lamps maybe, no couldn't be.

 

[GBDamo]

Ha, no not that stupid. They’re the 40W flavour TL5Cs.

Well I say that but the ones I’ve been replacing with are 40W, went of the label rather than the old lamp. Can’t say I checked what the duds were. Now they’re in a coffin at the wholesalers.

Number three on my to do list, check all existing lamps are correct.

Keep these coming I might stretch this out till Friday. :-0

Ok might sound silly or too easy but the TL5C is rated for 22-42w they aren't putting in the 17w lamps maybe, no couldn't be.

 

[Midwest]

Yes it may but we have forum sections and open threads for such banter, my gripe is derailing someone else's thread and staff having to remove 12 posts that have nothing to do with what the OP posted and especially when he still online at the time replying and trying to answer questions put to him.

Thing is, in real life we have a laugh & a joke, whilst working, discussing serious issues, even when we are feeling low. We don't just wait for the proper moment, or limit it to special occasions . Its all part of life's rich tapestry.

Even the OP's enjoys the banter. Hope I'm still here tomorrow, in the literal sense.

 

[telectrix]

soz. thought you said bantam.

 

[GBDamo]

Well, not a very productive day.

All voltages 235-240 and stable as far as I can tell without long term monitoring. Checked every Click distribution box and at one fitting per box, with the lights on.

Did not see a PIR switch whilst there and apparently someone else had set them all to 30 mins which looks ok.

All lamps correct, of the random twenty I checked .

Did find three old fluorescents in the ceiling void that were on. These have been unplugged from the Click boxes.

This does not appear to be a deterioration issue as the maintenance records show a pretty steady rate of failure from installation.

The ballasts are Tridonic so not crap only question left is whether they are compatible with the TL5CS, which I have to call the manufacturer tomorrow.

Hopefully there’s a picture attached showing the ballast.

 

[Leyland30]

This lamp type does not like high switching cycles. Increasing the timer period on the pirs might reduce lamp failure rates.

 

[GBDamo]

This lamp type does not like high switching cycles. Increasing the timer period on the pirs might reduce lamp failure rates.

After talking with Tridonic and Phillips the upshot is they don’t have a problem.

The ballast and lamp are well matched.

PIRs are not cycling too quickly.

The observed failure rate fits within the curve for the Philips master lamp.

The lamp is rated for 16,000 hours but 20% of lamps will go in half that.

Need to do some fairly complex maths when I can be arsed but my gut tells me it’s there or there abouts.

In the process of writing a report that says the above in many more and more fancier words with some graphs and pictures.

Got to justify the charge ;-)

 

[Dillb]

Sounds like the switching could be burning the cathodes out, look at fitting PIRs that dim the lights to a low level rather than switching them off completly.

 

[GBDamo]

Sounds like the switching could be burning the cathodes out, look at fitting PIRs that dim the lights to a low level rather than switching them off completly.

Thought of it but the ballasts are non dimable.

The cost of replacing ballasts, then PIRs is not far off new LED panels.

 

[w0z]

Thought of it but the ballasts are non dimable.

The cost of replacing ballasts, then PIRs is not far off new LED panels.

The leds are going to be a difficult sell on energy saving grounds alone, because the tl5cs are fairly efficient at 3300 lumens/40W but that said none of them apart from the new ones will be producing anything like that. Leds would however maintain their output for longer and be instant on compared to the relatively slow warm-up times of the cfls.

 

[gnuuser]

The leds are going to be a difficult sell on energy saving grounds alone, because the tl5cs are fairly efficient at 3300 lumens/40W but that said none of them apart from the new ones will be producing anything like that. Leds would however maintain their output for longer and be instant on compared to the relatively slow warm-up times of the cfls.

correct and most cfl are not designed to work below a certain ambient temperature.

ha ha! had one customer put cfl lamps in his outside lights and called me when the weather got cold thinking something was wrong with the electric (he didn't read the label on the lamp)
anyhow replaced them with led lamps and alls good.