Holding back certs for payment

[Guest123]

Like I said, each to his own.

In response to the OP, not something I have done, or would do.

 

[RISElectrical]

I did state in my OP that for clients in commercial and industrial I have different terms, different terms per client, per cost bracket etc etc. All my experiencence is in commercial and true you can't, and I don't withhold from them. All manuals, certs etc are handed over upon completion. I was talking about domestic where its easier to withhold a cert for 30 days than it is to chase £100. domestic is something I have a mass of experience in.

I would, if I went for the idea have it clearly stated on all estimates and invoices.

 

[UNG]

In my opinion, technically, that's wrong. The customer is entitled to withold payment until the job is completed, that includes certification. The way I do it is issue large customers with foolproof T and C's including late payment clauses and also a clause that states all fittings remain my property until payment is recieved in full.

That way, if they don't pay, you might not get your money straight away but you are at least able to inconvenience them substantially whilst in the process of taking them to court.

Nothing in my opinion is foolproof and while all fittings may remain your property entering a site to recover them may be considered trespass

 

[baldelectrician]

I do a fair bit of domestic work and always tell the client that I don't discuss inspection and testing until payment is recieved.

Had one last week say "I'll pay by cheque", I told him that I will be back to do the EICR in 2 weeks once the cheque is clear. I offered him the option to pay via card but he refused- he was a builder.
I walked away from this one- the first one I have had problems like this in 3 years

I used to issue a cert watermarked one with 'copy-not valid', I also don't sign the cert and fill the name box with "NOT SIGNED" to make sure
This way I am issuing a cert as required by law- it doesn't require you to sign it, only issue a cert. This was too much hassle.

For ALL EICR's (unless it's a regular client) I tell the client upon arrival that over 60% fail and tell them it's company policy to take payment upon arrival. I give them the option of continuing with payment or leaving without charge.

 

[mickys86]

I do a fair bit of domestic work and always tell the client that I don't discuss inspection and testing until payment is recieved.

Had one last week say "I'll pay by cheque", I told him that I will be back to do the EICR in 2 weeks once the cheque is clear. I offered him the option to pay via card but he refused- he was a builder.
I walked away from this one- the first one I have had problems like this in 3 years

I used to issue a cert watermarked one with 'copy-not valid', I also don't sign the cert and fill the name box with "NOT SIGNED" to make sure
This way I am issuing a cert as required by law- it doesn't require you to sign it, only issue a cert. This was too much hassle.

For ALL EICR's (unless it's a regular client) I tell the client upon arrival that over 60% fail and tell them it's company policy to take payment upon arrival. I give them the option of continuing with payment or leaving without charge.

So in effect - you charge before you do any work??

 

[baldelectrician]

Only for works that involve inspection of works carried out by others for building control approval

I charge the agreed amount upon arrival and explain the situation- I almost always make this clear on the phone (unless I am driving and it's a really bad line) when the works are arranged so the client is aware at the outset.

The customer has nothing to lose- if they don't agree I walk and thank them for their time -without charge

I started this when I had problems getting paid from a couple of one off clients who were miffed their sheet installation failed and didn't see why they had to pay for a failed inspection.

I don't tell anything on an inspection until the balance is paid.

 

[imago]

I'm a simple soul, if I don't like the 'feel' of a job or customer I don't do the work. On the odd occaision payment isn't forthcoming when it's due I use whatever means I feel appropriate in the circumstances to recover what's owed.

Watertight T&Cs are all very well, but they only tend to work with people who were going to pay anyway.

To answer the original question, I don't withold certs or any other paperwork. I do exactly what I've been engaged to do and prvide everything which is required to fulfill that obligation. Then the customer pays me what they have agreed. Sometimes it takes longer than expected.

 

[D Skelton]

Nothing in my opinion is foolproof and while all fittings may remain your property entering a site to recover them may be considered trespass

Trespass is a civil dispute, not a criminal offence, to which a perfectly reasonable counter claim in any court would be that I entered the property to reclaim goods that I legally own. No court would ever rule in favour of the claimant and his accusation of trespass when the far more serious claim of obtaining property and/or services by deception has to be answered first.

If you look around, there's plenty of case law to back up people trespassing in order to reclaim goods owned. As long as no criminal offence is committed in gaining entry to the property, you'd be perfectly fine.

 

[D Skelton]

I did state in my OP that for clients in commercial and industrial I have different terms, different terms per client, per cost bracket etc etc. All my experiencence is in commercial and true you can't, and I don't withhold from them. All manuals, certs etc are handed over upon completion. I was talking about domestic where its easier to withhold a cert for 30 days than it is to chase £100. domestic is something I have a mass of experience in.

I would, if I went for the idea have it clearly stated on all estimates and invoices.

What you would do is provide more opportunity for a customer not to pay you. If I was a customer and had an electrician carry out an EICR on one of my properties, I wouldn't be handing over any money until I had the report in my hand. The law would fully support anyone withholding payment until the job is 100% complete, which includes issue of the report. Also, any terms and conditions you write that state otherwise, regardless of whether the customer has signed and agreed to them, would be deemed entirely unlawful.

If an electrician told me no report would be issued until payment is received in full I would be telling them where to go!

A customer, no matter how big or small, is perfectly entitled to withhold payment until you stop withholding the cert/report.

 

[RISElectrical]

Maybe considering the advise I may look into watermarking reports as draft or something, however with the hassle and cost of printing everything twice I might be best just issuing the reports and chancing not being paid.

Still finding my feet domestic wise with the customers, business to business is so much easier!

Thanks for all the replies

 

[imago]

Worth bearing in mind that as T&Cs form part of a contract, any unlawful statement or terms renders the whole contract unlawful and therefore void.

Contract law is an absolute minefield if you aren't up to speed with what is or isn't acceptable. Keep it as simple as possible and you can't go wrong. ie, "I will do this, this and this. You will pay me this amount by that date/upon completion." As soon as you start adding things in like penalty clauses, ownership statements, transfer of ownership terms, conditions that must be satisfied prior to other actions taking place etc etc you need to have it drawn up by a suitably qaulified and experienced solicitor. If you don't when one is engaged they will start work tearing it apart and ripping you a new poo shute in the process.

There is much discussion on this forum about partly qualified and inexperienced electricians taking on jobs which are beyond them. Yet some sparks who have absolutely no training or experience feel that they can draw up legally binding contracts and agreements. You can't have it both ways, either amateur hour is OK, or you only engage suitably qualified professionals to do the job right.

 

[D Skelton]

Maybe considering the advise I may look into watermarking reports as draft or something, however with the hassle and cost of printing everything twice I might be best just issuing the reports and chancing not being paid.

Still finding my feet domestic wise with the customers, business to business is so much easier!

Thanks for all the replies

Trust me, you're more likely to get screwed over money wise by another business than a domestic customer. I wouldn't even waste any energy worrying about it.

Also, believe me, it is a hell of a lot easier to get money owed to you from someone with a permanent address and a couple of cars on the drive instead of a business with nothing but a dodgy PO box as their registered address!

 

[RISElectrical]

The holding back of the certs was my only question as I wasn't sure on this. My terms and conditions that we have in place have been drawn up by a solicitor. Was just askinclear some feedback about the addition of the report clause for domestic clients.

Reading it's probably not the best idea and I'm probably best just using the same terms as we give to commercial clients

 

[imago]

The only difference I have between business/commercial and domestic customers are the payment terms. Domestic it's 30% the day I start work and the rest on completion. Business and commercial it's staged payments (first fix, second fix, test & cert) for new installs. For commercial repairs or testing it's still staged but that is on a case by case. For both it's agreed up front.

As I said earlier though, if it doesn't 'feel' right I politely decline the work. Sure that's probably cost me a few jobs here and there, but it's definately saved me a fair amount of time and hassle.

 

[D Skelton]

You'll do just fine my friend Welcome to the wonderful world of of house bashing!

 

[Guitarist]

It's all fine and dandy for people with a steady income, sick pay and a pension to tell you what the law states (I know, I've been there). When it is you against the world though, and someone gives you grief over payment with your mortgage due and kids to feed, then a simple thing like "I've done the work, you pay me and I give you a certificate" can make a world of difference.

 

[Goody]

Someone said on this forum that he would give a customer a certificate with a watermark that says, “Not a valid certificate” and give the proper one only if the full payment was made. Sensible approach!

 

[baldelectrician]

Maybe considering the advise I may look into watermarking reports as draft or something, however with the hassle and cost of printing everything twice I might be best just issuing the reports and chancing not being paid.

Still finding my feet domestic wise with the customers, business to business is so much easier!

Thanks for all the replies

Why print- I email all mine as a pdf (with a scanned signature).then it's their ink and no post