Terms and Conditions- Opinions

[overskilled]

So as suggested by Mr Skelton, I'm putting my current (tightened up) T&Cs up here for you all to lookover, pick facts with and generally berate.
Beware it is quite wordy (5 pages...perhaps microsoft would give me a job writing software EULAs?)View attachment Terms and Conditions.pdf

 

[sparkdog]

Well,I think its tooooo long.I don't think the average domestic customer would read beyond the first paragraph,but for commercial I expect it would be alright.
Incidentally your location always reminds me of "The ball of Kirriemuir."

 

[overskilled]

The wife said the same...but what else can I do, take much out and I'm leaving myself open to people taking the piddle.....I've put it on my website and if they choose to sign it without reading it (as everyone does with software, various insurance/banking documents) then its their own lookout I suppose.....

 

[D Skelton]

I will be objective in my critisism and in no way mean to sound disparaging. Here are my thoughts:

PAGE 1:

Point 5. The difference between a call out charge and an out of hours labour charge needs clarification, likely ammending.

Points 6 and 7. What call out charges will be levvied? State or refer.

Point 8. Covered from what?

Point 9. Your guarantee terms really do need expanding.

Point 12. 5% weekly surcharge is unenforcable, besides, 5% of what?

£10 per email/letter is too much like a financial penalty for breach of contract and as such, is unenforceable, in court you could however claim for reasonable costs incurred by you to reclaim money owed.

Point 13. That's for a court to decide, not you.

Point 15. So you'll add money on to the bill if they are just cheeky and try to haggle?


PAGE 2 onwards:

Point 1. Any floor coverings left in situ are not left at the customer's risk.

Point 5. Completely unenforcable. If you tear someones house apart and then leave because you can't run a cable they don't owe you diddly squat.

ASSUMPTIONS:

Point 3.2. As page 2 point 5, you cannot tear someone's house apart on an assumption and then expect to be able to bugger off with a load of cash half way through the job.

Point 5.3. No, it is your responsibility to ensure that sensitive equipment prone to damage is disconnected, you are the one pumping 500V down the conductors.






I can see what you're trying to do, however in my opinion you are trying to cover yourself for every eventuality and this is simply impossible. Specific job related concerns should be raised either verbally or written and discussed on a job to job basis as they change so frequently. I make these clear on any of my proposal documentation.

Terms and conditions are there to protect both the supplier and the customer and are supposed to be more general. You constantly mention the customer's obligations but don't make clear any of your own. I would also say that your ordering needs vast improvement.

If I were a customer presented with these Ts & Cs, you would not be getting the work.

I will post a copy of my general terms and conditions for you to look at and compare. The terms and conditions I use were freely available on a British contract law forum and recommended to me by my cousin who is a solicitor who specialises in contract law, so I have every faith that mine are legally binding. Under my cousins watchful eye they have been changed a number of times over the years to suit.

I don't want to sound harsh at all as it is clear you have put alot of time and effort into your terms, but in my opinion I think you need to go back to square one.

 

[D Skelton]

These are our general Ts & Cs for domestic and small commercial customers. I have site specific Ts & Cs drawn up tailored to the nature of our work for larger commercial and industrial customers and other types of regular contract work. These are out of format obviously:

View attachment Terms and Conditions of Business.pdf

 

[overskilled]

Fair enough, However I will point out that banks etc are limited to £15 I believe for stuff like duplicate statements, letters etc and that has been judged legal by the courts (previously some were charging some along the lines £40 to £60)
It does say on there that the call out charge does not include labour. It does need some honing I will admit that...however in terms of floorcoverings, I was talking to someone who does work for local authorities and they have that in their T&Cs and they have been told its enforceable and the local authority have backed them up on that point.
One of my relations works with legal types so he's going to see if one of them can look it over and get their viewpoints (if nothing else...lawyers tend to dispute interpretations of the law...must be why they get paid so much...greyer than BS7671)

- - - Updated - - -

These are our general Ts & Cs for domestic and small commercial customers. I have site specific Ts & Cs drawn up tailored to the nature of our work for larger commercial and industrial customers and other types of regular contract work. These are out of format obviously:

Hmm internet seems to have eaten them DS...

 

[overskilled]

Point 15. Generally no, but it might dissaude some from trying to renegotiate the bill at the last minute...something they only seem to try on smaller firms...try that with your garage and see how fast you get your car back........Also I've spoken to several recovery agents and tbh their view was if they have failed to make payment then its their own fault...and they should expect extra charges for the time wasted chasing up payments.....

 

[overskilled]

Point 2 covers office hours and non office hours
Points 3 and 4 covers office hours & out of hours labour charges
Points 6 and 7 - see point 5

I'm borderline dyslexic so my word order gets messed up sometimes, albeit I can write technical reports reasonably well.....

 

[D Skelton]

Fair enough, However I will point out that banks etc are limited to £15 I believe for stuff like duplicate statements,

That is a chargeable service provided for you by them, by law thay have to make them freely available online though. Chasing a debt is not a chargable service, but you would be allowed to make reasonable representation in court as to the extent of your actual financial loss chasing that debt.

letters etc

They cannot charge you for sending you a letter

(previously some were charging some along the lines £40 to £60)

Which was deemed unfair and illegal

It does say on there that the call out charge does not include labour. It does need some honing I will admit that...however in terms of floorcoverings, I was talking to someone who does work for local authorities and they have that in their T&Cs and they have been told its enforceable and the local authority have backed them up on that point.

If you cause damage to their floor covering through negligence that's your doing. You cannot exlude yourself from all liability is the point I was trying to make. You need to be very clear here.

Hmm internet seems to have eaten them DS...

Sorted

 

[overskilled]

Ok did some mods already, found a few points duplicated and purged them.
Also changed abandoned in a few instances to postponed (as in I will come back and finish it but I need XYZ sorted by the supplier/asbestos contractor etc firstly) and altered the potential charge to either time spent on site when the issue is uncovered or the default callout charge. I'll hone it further when I'm more awake.
Point 5.3 (EICR) changed "required" to "requested"
I'm going to add some supplier responsibilities also
(to make it clearer - I will take all reasonable precautions to protect carpets etc via use of dustsheets etc and that damage through *independently proven* negligence will be paid for), though might get some legal advice on that...just so I don't land myself in hot water....

 

[overskilled]

That is a chargeable service provided for you by them, by law thay have to make them freely available online though. Chasing a debt is not a chargable service, but you would be allowed to make reasonable representation in court as to the extent of your actual financial loss chasing that debt.
They cannot charge you for sending you a letter
Which was deemed unfair and illegal
If you cause damage to their floor covering through negligence that's your doing. You cannot exlude yourself from all liability is the point I was trying to make. You need to be very clear here.
Sorted

Thanks your comments are appreciated.
Essentially I maybe should go back to the previous version as in "The company reserves the right to instruct recovery agents in the event of non payment of monies due".

Contract law is interesting...its surprising how many rights that are waivable through contracts....even your "freedom of expression rights" under the ECHR are waivable under employment law...your employer is fully entitled to fire you for comments you make out of work that may reflect badly on the business and the bad reflection can be tenuous to put it mildly....

 

[overskilled]

I'm considering splitting the T&Cs, exclusions and assumptions into separate documents...which probably would make things a lot clearer....
I only bundled them into one to make it easier to print tbh...

 

[D Skelton]

Ok did some mods already, found a few points duplicated and purged them.
Also changed abandoned in a few instances to postponed (as in I will come back and finish it but I need XYZ sorted by the supplier/asbestos contractor etc firstly) and altered the potential charge to either time spent on site when the issue is uncovered or the default callout charge. I'll hone it further when I'm more awake.
Point 5.3 (EICR) changed "required" to "requested"
I'm going to add some supplier responsibilities also
(to make it clearer - I will take all reasonable precautions to protect carpets etc via use of dustsheets etc and that damage through *independently proven* negligence will be paid for), though might get some legal advice on that...just so I don't land myself in hot water....

Seriously mate, have a read of mine. I'm not trying to blow smoke up my own backside but this is how it should be laid out. Like I said, I would get rid of all the electrical gumpf and agree things on a job by job basis. You don't really need terms and conditions telling the customer that if they make libelous remarks they face court action and that lamps and fuses aren't covered by your guarantee. Make the important stuff count, the rest just serves to muddy the water.

 

[overskilled]

Cheers DS....its just I've had a few customers who seemingly HAVE needed the point about fuses and bulbs not being covered beaten into them.....lol
Seemingly damned if I do, damned if I don't....
I've skimmed yours...have a better look tomorrow...cheers again...other complication is the 2 different legal systems...scots law and english law...what may be enforceable there, may not be here and vice versa....urgh....

The libellious remarks one will likely get binned....I got the idea from the Septics....seems its something a few companies have been secretly sticking in the T&Cs...and to the cost of customers...lawyers who've looked it over seem to have taken the view that they have agreed not to do something and then went and done it and no matter the "ethics" of it...its legal....

Also a certain "cash saving" forum seemingly has been running a thread encouraging people to claim for this that and the next thing from British Gas...talked to someone who subs for them....seemingly their claims have went through the roof since this went online mainly as British Gas haven't been doing checks on the claims so its turned into a feeding frenzy....the old illness of humanity....GREED.....worse it gets the more hardened each side gets in their attitude and the more extreme the lengths people will go to....

 

[Smudge]

i feel a bit stupid now saying to 'customers', 50 quid for cash, no catch.

Points already raised are a lot more in depth than what i would have read into, (as you may get with an arsey customer), but i think it looks pretty good with a few small tweaks?

in saying that, it's probably the only t+c's i've been able to understand nevermind read all the way to the end!

 

[telectrix]

i feel a bit stupid now saying to 'customers', 50 quid for cash, no catch.

Points already raised are a lot more in depth than what i would have read into, (as you may get with an arsey customer), but i think it looks pretty good with a few small tweaks?

in saying that, it's probably the only t+c's i've been able to understand nevermind read all the way to the end!

like your gigtansure