OK, I'll kick off tonights Political thread.....

[trev]

Generally recognised by whom? There must be a source for it somewhere.

 

[Guest77]

£25 to see your GP: Majority of doctors want to charge patients for routine appointments - Health News - Health & Families - The Independent
It's GPs who wanted to charge for appointments, not the government.
It was rejected by nurses:
Nurses reject plans to make patients pay £10 for a GP appointment - Home News - UK - The Independent

Now tell us where you've heard the government want to charge £150 for an appointment lol.

Well funnily enough I saw a program about it on sky news which went into detail about 150 quid and the outrage which would be obviously felt by the majority of the public, the GPs were not happy and suggested 25 quid, the government wanted 150, this is another tory policy which has been shot down in flames, they are still determined to charge us for GP appointments just like the bedroom and pasty tax, the Numpty party who only represent 1% of the country, the filthy rich, How any working class man or woman can vote for that party is a mystery, it really is a mystery.

 

[Octopus]

Where does that 700k come from please?

MigrationWatchUK | What is the problem?

Then read bullet point 8 - it would seem I'm low by rather a lot.

I recall the 700K as being the numbers who are registered with NI numbers and are working -but if you use the numbers on this page its bad news.

and if you read bullet point 10 you will see the population increased by 4 million in 10 years.

Now tell me that this isn't driving housing costs up!

 

[Adam W]

the amount of people happy to do this is miniscule


See that line? So have I but they are not as prevelant as some would have you believe

I disagree. I've met a few of them, I've seen non-working chavs sitting around drinking, smoking and harassing passers-by for spare change, spare cigarettes, the time etc. In the block I live in only 2 out of 10 seem to work full time, and another has a part-time cleaning job.

I've spoken to jobcentre staff who have assured me most of the people claiming JSA are 'genuine', but you see a lot of the claimants outside and they obviously don't want a job, but they have to make it look like they do to the JS staff otherwise they'd lose their benefits.

Similarly with immigration - people try to say it isn't a big problem, but when you walk around a supermarket or down a street and most of the voices you hear are speaking foreign languages it clearly is.

I was in Aldi earlier; while the cashier was serving me she started talking across me to the security guard in a foreign language. They might have been talking about me, I don't know, but I found it very rude. To me that is a problem. A minor one, but still a problem. Add several incidents like that together every day and becomes a bigger problem.

 

[Guest77]

Its the generally recognised numbers of Eastern Europeans who arrived here from about 2001 to 2010

How many went back home??

 

[ferg]

Yes really, I accept the opinion that we are a small country and nearly full, at 70 million and an Island only 900 miles long I can see this argument, but the figures we keep hearing and the fact all immigrants are scroungers do not convince me immigration is bad for the UK.

Obviously it needs to be controlled and I would like to see the figures of people leaving here as well as the figures of people coming here, it is all one sided.

I think it's the net migration figure you would be looking for.

Most academic studies seem to agree that immigration has a very slight overall benefit to the economy.

I guess the counter argument is whether or not this is worth it.

 

[Guest77]

I disagree. I've met a few of them, I've seen non-working chavs sitting around drinking, smoking and harassing passers-by for spare change, spare cigarettes, the time etc. In the block I live in only 2 out of 10 seem to work full time, and another has a part-time cleaning job.

I've spoken to jobcentre staff who have assured me most of the people claiming JSA are 'genuine', but you see a lot of the claimants outside and they obviously don't want a job, but they have to make it look like they do to the JS staff otherwise they'd lose their benefits.

Similarly with immigration - people try to say it isn't a big problem, but when you walk around a supermarket or down a street and most of the voices you hear are speaking foreign languages it clearly is.

I was in Aldi earlier; while the cashier was serving me she started talking across me to the security guard in a foreign language. They might have been talking about me, I don't know, but I found it very rude. To me that is a problem. A minor one, but still a problem. Add several incidents like that together every day and becomes a bigger problem.

I would recommend you report them to the authorities then, they are breaking the law by letting you a member of the public know confidentional information, who are these job centre staff, can you prove they told you this and can you name them so I can report them for this appalling breach of trust of personal information.

 

[Octopus]

How many went back home??

Not that many.

Look at the population growth over 10 years - up 4 million

The brits aren't having that many babies - its the incomers.

 

[Adam W]

Well funnily enough I saw a program about it on sky news which went into detail about 150 quid and the outrage which would be obviously felt by the majority of the public, the GPs were not happy and suggested 25 quid, the government wanted 150, this is another tory policy which has been shot down in flames, they are still determined to charge us for GP appointments just like the bedroom and pasty tax, the Numpty party who only represent 1% of the country, the filthy rich, How any working class man or woman can vote for that party is a mystery, it really is a mystery.

As I understand it the pasty tax never went ahead.
There used to be a pasty shop in my local Asda which sold really nice pasties, until they suddenly decided they weren't allowed to keep the pasties warm and 'had to' start selling cold ones, which were horrible, so I stopped going there and went to McDonalds next door where apparently they are 'allowed to' sell warm food.
Clearly other people stopped going there because it's a Timpsons now. £5 to get a key cut. They can kiss my arse.

 

[ferg]

Not that many.

Look at the population growth over 10 years - up 4 million

The brits aren't having that many babies - its the incomers.

Using this argument we will have a n ageing population problem and will need immigration to fill the low paid carers jobs.

 

[Guest77]

As I understand it the pasty tax never went ahead.
There used to be a pasty shop in my local Asda which sold really nice pasties, until they suddenly decided they weren't allowed to keep the pasties warm and 'had to' start selling cold ones, which were horrible, so I stopped going there and went to McDonalds next door where apparently they are 'allowed to' sell warm food.
Clearly other people stopped going there because it's a Timpsons now. £5 to get a key cut. They can kiss my arse.

The pasty tax didn't go ahead because it was one of the 22 taxes the public stood up against and it is one they decided to abandon due to overwhelmingly public disgust, they would have kept it if there was no stink about it for sure, they are trying to tax speech now, if you say goodmorning they knock 20 pence off your pension, if there is one left in a few years that is.

 

[specs]

Its the generally recognised numbers of Eastern Europeans who arrived here from about 2001 to 2010

Trev it may be the generally recognised figure, but I fear it is far from the truth. Come to London and visit the building sites/ builders yards, walk up any high street and take a look at the shops, stand outside the schools visit A&E try to et an apt with your doctor, walk along any high st and listen to the lingo. Then you will hear and see the truth

 

[Adam W]

I would recommend you report them to the authorities then, they are breaking the law by letting you a member of the public know confidentional information, who are these job centre staff, can you prove they told you this and can you name them so I can report them for this appalling breach of trust of personal information.

Obviously they didn't name names, and they might consider me sitting there writing down everything they said along with their name, or videoing the conversation to be unduly aggressive.
It was in Bournemouth Jobcentre if that helps you?

 

[Adam W]

The pasty tax didn't go ahead because it was one of the 22 taxes the public stood up against and it is one they decided to abandon due to overwhelmingly public disgust, they would have kept it if there was no stink about it for sure, they are trying to tax speech now, if you say goodmorning they knock 20 pence off your pension, if there is one left in a few years that is.

Well now you're just being even more ridiculous.

 

[trev]

I disagree. I've met a few of them, I've seen non-working chavs sitting around drinking, smoking and harassing passers-by for spare change, spare cigarettes, the time etc. In the block I live in only 2 out of 10 seem to work full time, and another has a part-time cleaning job.
So that's your experience and field of reference? Your block? Seriously?
I've claimed dole in the past mate and I can assure you that the things you see on TV are myths. There's no one getting £30k for sitting on their arse

I've spoken to jobcentre staff who have assured me most of the people claiming JSA are 'genuine', but you see a lot of the claimants outside and they obviously don't want a job, but they have to make it look like they do to the JS staff otherwise they'd lose their benefits.
Yes, you can tell by looking at them they don't want a job
Typical tory bull**** mate, sorry

Similarly with immigration - people try to say it isn't a big problem, but when you walk around a supermarket or down a street and most of the voices you hear are speaking foreign languages it clearly is.
The vast majority of voices I hear are English

I was in Aldi earlier; while the cashier was serving me she started talking across me to the security guard in a foreign language. They might have been talking about me, I don't know, but I found it very rude. To me that is a problem. A minor one, but still a problem. Add several incidents like that together every day and becomes a bigger problem.

How very dare they speak to each other in their mother tongue! Tell me, have you ever worked in another country? If yes did you bother to learn the language? Out of courtesy to the natives did you always make sure you never spoke to one of your colleagues in anything but the language of the country you were in?

 

[Guest77]

This is not a reply to anyone at all just something I felt I needed to post

There are a family of immigrants in our street who are from Sri-lanka. These people are the nicest people any of us could ever meet, they own a general store. They open at 6-00 in the morning so the early birds can get their newspapers and the working men and women can get a sandwich and they stay open until 11-00 PM at night. Everytime I go in there they are so friendly and chatty it is unbelieveable, the nicest hard working people you could ever imagine. They graft every day, they sell everything, if you wanted something they never had they would get it for you, I would describe them as honest, hardworking, decent, grafters, lovely neighbours and Proud to be in this country living a free life which they can bring up their family without prejudice and abuse.

If I listened to the Tory party I would hate this family, I would want them to go back home and have the building their store is housed in boarded up and covered in graffiti, I would see the white English people they employ out of work and claiming Benefits and not paying tax. They even have a picture of Jesus on the wall to let everyone know they are not Muslim because when they first came here they experienced racism due to thugs abusing them because they thought they were from the middle east.

I will stand by these people and treat them as equals, I hope David Cameron can meet them or others like them one day and sort his Racist back benchers out because it is them who are using false reporting regarding immigrants, they are not all scroungers and layabouts FFS.

 

[Guest77]

Well now you're just being even more ridiculous.

Just joking about that obviously Adam lol

 

[dingledong]

Trev I would learn or try to learn the lingo but in east ham walk down green street every shop and I mean every shop is Asian ,you will very rarely see a white person and if you do it's 50/50 if it's a non English person
I know 2 polish and lots of Asian firms who work but pay the staff £3 an hour or the polish ones earn £25 a day I cannot compete with these people I could not take an apprentice on for that money yes they work but the brit cannot match them at all

 

[dingledong]

In plaistow where I worked in 3 Nigerian restaurants ' I said hmmm these restaurants are a bit close together they must be competing with one another's
The reply there are about three quarters of a million Nigerians live within 5 or 6 miles from here
Ps
In one they had a bit of wire stuck in the meter ! ! !
I earned them that that was illegal but they were not bothered

 

[Guest77]

Trev I would learn or try to learn the lingo but in east ham walk down green street every shop and I mean every shop is Asian ,you will very rarely see a white person and if you do it's 50/50 if it's a non English person
I know 2 polish and lots of Asian firms who work but pay the staff £3 an hour or the polish ones earn £25 a day I cannot compete with these people I could not take an apprentice on for that money yes they work but the brit cannot match them at all

London is like that and has been for years, regarding the pay, we have a minimum wage in this country, I am aware some employers get around this by putting up people in cheap accomodation but if you are aware some adults are on £3 an hour then I suggest you report it to the authorities because it isn't right and illegal, these gang masters need sorting out.

 

[UNG]

Ed milliband? well I consider him a caretaker leader, he has no go in him at all and cannot even stand up to Cameron in PM questions, I do not rate or like him, however I will vote for my Local Labour Candidate because I like her, and I would rather eat a wall brick than vote for David Cameron.

Don't think Milliband will last to long especially with the man that has Ball'sed a few things up in the past

The man who vetoed europe without discussing it in the house, the man who sold the royal mail for 3 billion under value, the man who has raised taxes 22 times and yet back tracked on them when the public found out, the man who doesn't care about disabled people, the man who has destroyed the NHS and who,s next policy regarding it is to make us pay 150 quid to see our GP, the man who has actually added 500 billion to our dept and who has actually wasted more money than Gordon Brown and yet gets away with everything because he has the press on his side.

Surely that should be "the men who have destroyed the NHS" Blair and Brown built all these new hospitals on borrowed money and the mortgage payments are crippling two hospitals close to where I live couple that with the GP contract negotiations they screwed up half the work for twice the pay obviously a good deal

Everyone on here knows my political views, I am a Tony Blair man and even worse drink Creamflow beer lol.

We all have a cross to bear

I think deeper, even you may think I am mad Trev. There is a program called benefits britain life on the dole on the TV. It is about scroungers and layabouts, the other week it was about a Romanian Gypsy coming to the UK, the first shot of him was at his home in Romania, the second when he was saying I want 40k a year in benefits and Britian will give it to me.

This got me thinking, how did the BBC know about this guy? why did this guy devulge this on TV?Why did the BBC go over there to watch him come here?

a week later Cameron told the press he was clamping down on Benefit cheats and especially immigrants, I honestly believe the tory's paid for this program to con us to voting for them, I know, I know it sounds crazy but they are so low they will even stoop to this tactic to get our votes, they are scum, end of, scum.

We are the land of the great give away even before Cameron came to power, look at it another way it could have been Labour paying to try and score points.

They're still a single issue party, their solution to everything is to pull out of the EU. I'd rather not risk 4 million jobs thanks very much.
Now, before you play the "other countries are not members and manage to trade successfully with it" card. There is still a mountain of EU legislation that their companies have to comply with to enable them to have that trade so the cost to business is still there.
I'd rather be inside the tent ****ing out than outside it trying to **** in.
Reform not resignation

A weekly £385 millionish black hole in the EU accounts would blow the EU apart the Eurozone is struggling to stay afloat now with Greece and Spain having major finance problems you only have to see that Germany don't want to be left on there own to prop it all up.
The juggernaut that is the EU is beyond reform in my opinion there are too many on the gravy train and too many minor countries with a lot to lose if the EU is reformed

The mountain of EU legislation you quote is applied as and when they feel they need to, a mate of mine exports into Europe amongst other places and they change the rules all the time when he imports stock from the US he is never sure what EU taxes and UK duty he will pay as they keep changing the goods classification, and the best one has to be one of his customers trying to import a container of the goods direct from the US into Greece it wasn't allowed in and in the end the container had to be shipped to the UK was lifted onto the dockside the import documentation completed and then loaded onto another ship back to Greece at a cost to the customer , his suppliers in the US have spent somewhere between a third and half a million pounds to comply with EU legislation and get product registration for their goods as required by an EU directive it is illegal to use a non registered product yet the legislation is not enforced and companies are known to be selling and their customers using unregistered product that sells cheaper under cutting those who comply

So the EU ain't all it's cracked up to be tons of legislation that few comply with

 

[D Skelton]

I'm against immigration at this point in time not because I think they're all scroungers and not because of some suppressed bigotry, but simply because of supply and demand.

As much as I loathe Nigel Farage's Thatcher worship, I fully support him on every argument he has ever put forward about both the EU and the damage it does to us, and, our out of control immigration policy.

Immigration can be good, it also can be bad. At this point in time, there are too many of us on this tiny island. In the past, we've needed immigration.

What I hate is the trite labels put upon people who have legitimate questions about our immigration policies. We're automatically branded as intolerant and as closet racists. The fact is, there simply arent enough jobs to go round which means that they can afford to work for less to get them. Bunked up ten to the dozen in a little hovel somewhere allows them to do this and then scurry back to their own countries like millionaires whilst we struggle to eat because we're not prepared to huddle up together, twenty to a room, in a little bedsit somewhere.

I don't blame the immigrants I must say. If I could bugger off somewhere for a few years and put up with less than favourable living conditions for a couple of years but bring back enough money at the end of it to buy myself a couple of houses here outright, I would do it! It's for that reason that I blame the masterbators up in parliament for allowing it to happen in the first place.

Finally, I will add one more thing. If I had a licence to kill just one person, David Cameron would be that person! Slowly and painfully!

 

[Adam W]

How very dare they speak to each other in their mother tongue! Tell me, have you ever worked in another country? If yes did you bother to learn the language? Out of courtesy to the natives did you always make sure you never spoke to one of your colleagues in anything but the language of the country you were in?

The point I was trying to make is it depends where you go and who is around you - in parts of London, Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford etc 'British' are a minority group.
Yes I worked in the Algarve when I was younger. I made an attempt to learn Portuguese but I was working in a tourist resort catering for English speakers. I appreciate there are places in different countries where if you walk down the street most people are speaking English instead of the native language, but it seems strange you should have to go to a different country, or a specific part of this country to experience this.
When I was there I also experienced immigrant life, with 6 people sharing a 1 bedroom flat. None of us wanted to be in that living arrangement for the rest of our lives but we put up with it for the experience of working in a different country. The difference is we all worked in the tourist industry and weren't taking 'regular' jobs away from locals, but working for and alongside them.

My block was just an example - if the majority chose not to work the system would collapse, which is the concern with things getting out of control. I don't think I've ever met anyone claiming £30k in benefits but I have met people who live off benefits, whether or not they also have an undeclared income.
I've also been in the situation where I would have been better off on benefits than working - £500 per month housing paid for, £75 per month council tax relief, plus £70 or so JSA per week adds up to £10,540 a year, plus extra benefits such as free prescriptions and dental treatment and that's more than a shop or bar worker gets paid, without the hassle of having to get to work every day. Add in child-related benefits and you're talking about a significant amount.

 

[Adam W]

Just joking about that obviously Adam lol

Well obviously that bit was tongue in cheek but the rest of what you said wasn't far off.

 

[Guest77]

It is strange though how the BBC followed this Romanian to the UK, how did they know he was coming here? why did they devote a whole program to him and why did he say the things he said? Why did they spend thousands of licence payers money following him from Romania to the UK, who told them about him? is it real? I believe the tories are behind it.

 

[Guest77]

Don't think Milliband will last to long

Me Neither UNG, he is on borrowed time for sure, I don't like him myself, he is too weak for a potential prime minister.

 

[Adam W]

It is strange though how the BBC followed this Romanian to the UK, how did they know he was coming here? why did they devote a whole program to him and why did he say the things he said? Why did they spend thousands of licence payers money following him from Romania to the UK, who told them about him? is it real? I believe the tories are behind it.

I can't get over how that seems to be an answer to everything - anything left wing supporters don't like is put down to 'Tory propaganda' with no real substance to the debate.

One thing I don't understand is why the main parties are so keen on Europe. Apart from the possibility of a few politicians getting cushy jobs in Brussels once they leave office, is there a major benefit to us pandering to Europe which they aren't telling us?

 

[trev]

I can't get over how that seems to be an answer to everything - anything left wing supporters don't like is put down to 'Tory propaganda' with no real substance to the debate.

Of course, the right wing have never ever complained about the BBC's left wing bias have they? The fact is that the BBC are dependent on the government of the day and so switch allegiance at the drop of a ballot box.

 

[Guest77]

I can't get over how that seems to be an answer to everything - anything left wing supporters don't like is put down to 'Tory propaganda' with no real substance to the debate.

One thing I don't understand is why the main parties are so keen on Europe. Apart from the possibility of a few politicians getting cushy jobs in Brussels once they leave office, is there a major benefit to us pandering to Europe which they aren't telling us?

Adam if you can explain it to me then I will be happy to take it all back, I saw the program and it was just strange how a week after Cameron came out publically saying he was going to sort out immigrants, just a week after the whole series on benefit cheats finished, seems rather coincidental to me.

 

[Adam W]

Of course, the right wing have never ever complained about the BBC's left wing bias have they? The fact is that the BBC are dependent on the government of the day and so switch allegiance at the drop of a ballot box.

I disagree - large public funded institutions such as the BBC, councils, the NHS, police forces etc are left-wing biased because the left wing ideal is everyone works for the public sector.

 

[trev]

So, you complain about a leftie (Mike) complaining about right wing bias and you deny that the right have ever claimed left wing bias.
Then, by implication, you seem to say that there are no right wing councils or right wingers in the police.
Yeah, ok mate, no bother.

 

[Adam W]

Adam if you can explain it to me then I will be happy to take it all back, I saw the program and it was just strange how a week after Cameron came out publically saying he was going to sort out immigrants, just a week after the whole series on benefit cheats finished, seems rather coincidental to me.

Maybe to address public opinion to the program?
I'm not suggesting Labour orchestrated the Dunblane massacre so they could win votes by banning private ownership of handguns, but that they put in a policy to address something which was hot in the media.

 

[trev]

Maybe to address public opinion to the program?
I'm not suggesting Labour orchestrated the Dunblane massacre so they could win votes by banning private ownership of handguns, but that they put in a policy to address something which was hot in the media.

You might want to rethink that timeline Adam. Dunblane happened in 1996, who was in charge then?

 

[Adam W]

So, you complain about a leftie (Mike) complaining about right wing bias and you deny that the right have ever claimed left wing bias.
Then, by implication, you seem to say that there are no right wing councils or right wingers in the police.
Yeah, ok mate, no bother.

I don't think I said that - I'd have to read back to see where Mike complained about right wing bias but I was talking about the right wing 'complaining' about left wing bias in the public sector.

 

[Adam W]

You might want to rethink that timeline Adam. Dunblane happened in 1996, who was in charge then?

OK then the conservatives didn't orchestrate the Dunblane massacre in an attempt to gain votes. Whoever was in charge it's the same effect - the government react to public demand by introducing policies which don't necessarily help.

 

[trev]

So it's incumbent on whichever government is in power not to make idiotic knee jerk reactions which do nothing of any worth.

 

[moospark]

It is strange though how the BBC followed this Romanian to the UK, how did they know he was coming here? why did they devote a whole program to him and why did he say the things he said? Why did they spend thousands of licence payers money following him from Romania to the UK, who told them about him? is it real? I believe the tories are behind it.

Spent a few years in telly, and on this one, you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

[Darkwood]

They're still a single issue party, their solution to everything is to pull out of the EU. I'd rather not risk 4 million jobs thanks very much.
Now, before you play the "other countries are not members and manage to trade successfully with it" card. There is still a mountain of EU legislation that their companies have to comply with to enable them to have that trade so the cost to business is still there.
I'd rather be inside the tent ****ing out than outside it trying to **** in.
Reform not resignation

ok slight issue with your response ... how can we reform the EU or reclaim powers when we no longer have the power to do so ... please also reference with factual data your 4million figure and while in the EU we gave so many limitations on trading outside the EU ... yes many job loses if we leave but also many created ...you cant change your lifestyle without losing some mates but youll always get new ones and they most likely treat you better ... just saying

 

[trev]

ok slight issue with your response ... how can we reform the EU or reclaim powers when we no longer have the power to do so ... please also reference with factual data your 4million figure and while in the EU we gave so many limitations on trading outside the EU ... yes many job loses if we leave but also many created ...you cant change your lifestyle without losing some mates but youll always get new ones and they most likely treat you better ... just saying

We can't reform the EU with the liar we have in charge at present.
The 4 million figure comes from the amount of companies that say they'll pull out of the UK if we leave it. X amount of primary jobs (those directly employed by the companies, y amount of secondary jobs (those employed in the supply chain, usually a ratio of 4:1) Z amount of tertiary jobs (those jobs which are dependent on the spending power of those in the primary and secondary jobs)
Please explain where we are going to get 4 million jobs from when we can't find work for the 2.5 million currently unemployed

 

[Darkwood]

Nor me Trev, I personally think immigration is good for the country.

immigration is good for the country... uncontrolled immigration is not our services are buckling and schools now need to find 300000 extra places that dont exist ... while brussels sorry germany make our rules it can only get worse and the main parties no matter what they spin cannot change it while been EU members ... think about it we are an isolated country now on the EU table any thing we try to get has to be agreed by every other country ... it aint going to happen ever ... been a member of the EU has certain benefits but they are so outweighed by its negatives over the last 5 yrs we have lost our powers of debate over the table to .... must be nice living somewhere not been flooded and ruined by immigrants mostly jobless and blocking up the nhs, schools and claiming and sending all there cash out of the country... wait till it catches you up