T
trev
NO! Stay, it's good seeing you blow your own statements out of the water.
G
Guest77
LOL, it takes all sorts hehe
OK boys, I've something fairly substantive to say on this, and I'm fairly learned on the subject, too. The reason being that Father in Law is a large scale dairy farmer, and has one of the largest herds in Somerset. In fact, I'd wager there's half a chance that many of you will actually have his milk (in the form of cheese) in your fridges as you read this. And two years ago, he lost something like 180 pure pedigree beasts unnecessarily in TB screening.
Now, before I start on Cows and Badgers I'd just like to pose this question about vaccination: Why would you want to? For example - the UK is thankfully (and amazingly) Rabies free. Now, there are very effective vaccines against Rabies.....so why don't we just vaccinate every single form of Mammal (Humans included) in the UK, and not bother with border controls etc? Er.... no thanks. So basically, why allow the spread of a disease, simply because you can treat the symptoms. It just doesn't make sense. It's the electricians equivalent of saying it doesn't matter how shoddy the installation is, I put an RCD in.
Now, about Badgers. Yes, they look nice. Well, that's when they haven't got their chops dripping in blood after they've just been down a burrow for a rabbit. Badgers have no natural predators in the wild, they actually require human beings to manage the population. The minute that someone decided all badgers must have leaped off the pages of Wind in the Willows, and must be protected, it was incredibly short sighted and ill-informed. And yes, they carry, and spread, TB. And we know this first hand because F-I-L's herd is a closed herd. There are no inbound cattle movements. And contrary to popular belief, they are not pumped full of drugs and kept crowded and so on. They are very well looked after indeed. They have sanitised stalls when in, filtered treated water...etc. At an engineering level, there is no other possible explanation.
So now we're left with cows, or rather, the means of testing for TB in cows. For reasons best known to themselves, DEFRA (and in fairness I think this is starting to change very very slowly) use a method of testing which has been long abandoned by every other country (Australia was the first) as being completely unreliable. It's a two-stage test - they have a 'skin reactor' which is where they are injected and then a few days later if they are suspect to carrying TB some part of the cows skin becomes inflamed. Apart from the fact that there are hundreds of other things which can cause the same reaction. The other second part of the test can only be done postmortem. That's right.....in order to see if you need to kill the cow in order to stop the spread of TB, you first have to kill the cow. And, there are other, far more reliable, means of testing available, the UK just refuses to use them.
Out of 180 slaughtered prime pedigree dairy cows, guess how many actually had TB? None.
So, if we're talking about the 'unnecessary killing of animals' where do you think we need to start?
Now, before I start on Cows and Badgers I'd just like to pose this question about vaccination: Why would you want to? For example - the UK is thankfully (and amazingly) Rabies free. Now, there are very effective vaccines against Rabies.....so why don't we just vaccinate every single form of Mammal (Humans included) in the UK, and not bother with border controls etc? Er.... no thanks. So basically, why allow the spread of a disease, simply because you can treat the symptoms. It just doesn't make sense. It's the electricians equivalent of saying it doesn't matter how shoddy the installation is, I put an RCD in.
Now, about Badgers. Yes, they look nice. Well, that's when they haven't got their chops dripping in blood after they've just been down a burrow for a rabbit. Badgers have no natural predators in the wild, they actually require human beings to manage the population. The minute that someone decided all badgers must have leaped off the pages of Wind in the Willows, and must be protected, it was incredibly short sighted and ill-informed. And yes, they carry, and spread, TB. And we know this first hand because F-I-L's herd is a closed herd. There are no inbound cattle movements. And contrary to popular belief, they are not pumped full of drugs and kept crowded and so on. They are very well looked after indeed. They have sanitised stalls when in, filtered treated water...etc. At an engineering level, there is no other possible explanation.
So now we're left with cows, or rather, the means of testing for TB in cows. For reasons best known to themselves, DEFRA (and in fairness I think this is starting to change very very slowly) use a method of testing which has been long abandoned by every other country (Australia was the first) as being completely unreliable. It's a two-stage test - they have a 'skin reactor' which is where they are injected and then a few days later if they are suspect to carrying TB some part of the cows skin becomes inflamed. Apart from the fact that there are hundreds of other things which can cause the same reaction. The other second part of the test can only be done postmortem. That's right.....in order to see if you need to kill the cow in order to stop the spread of TB, you first have to kill the cow. And, there are other, far more reliable, means of testing available, the UK just refuses to use them.
Out of 180 slaughtered prime pedigree dairy cows, guess how many actually had TB? None.
So, if we're talking about the 'unnecessary killing of animals' where do you think we need to start?
T
trev
Trust you to be the voice of bloody reason, haven't you got work to do in Hong Kong?
It's not treating the symptoms though is it? Innoculation will prevent the animals getting the disease in the first place
It's not treating the symptoms though is it? Innoculation will prevent the animals getting the disease in the first place
B
Barry White
from defra website
BCG vaccination of cattle, as with BCG vaccination in other species, is not 100% effective in preventing TB. Rather, it provides a spectrum of protection:
BCG vaccination of cattle could be a valuable tool when used alongside other TB control measures in the UK.
Vaccination of cattle against TB is currently prohibited by EU legislation, in place principally because BCG vaccination of cattle can interfere with the tuberculin skin test which is the recognised primary diagnostic test for TB in cattle.
quotes from Cattle vaccination « Animal Diseases
so inoculation is not on the agenda
BCG vaccination of cattle, as with BCG vaccination in other species, is not 100% effective in preventing TB. Rather, it provides a spectrum of protection:
- Some cattle will be fully protected;
- Some cattle will suffer a less severe form of disease (and be less likely to affect other animals);
- Some cattle will get no protection from vaccination.
BCG vaccination of cattle could be a valuable tool when used alongside other TB control measures in the UK.
Vaccination of cattle against TB is currently prohibited by EU legislation, in place principally because BCG vaccination of cattle can interfere with the tuberculin skin test which is the recognised primary diagnostic test for TB in cattle.
quotes from Cattle vaccination « Animal Diseases
so inoculation is not on the agenda
J
jaypp
Within the farming community!
Sorry, that may have been in poor taste on an emotive subject.
I feel quite averse to the idea of the badger cull, even more so after the failed practise run.. and as for fox hunting, I just cant get my head around hunting an animal with a great pack of dogs for fun... just doesn't make sense.
However.. my mother has cattle (only 6) and most of her farmer friends feel strongly in favour of the cull due to the absolute devastation TB causes. I dont know if the badgers spread TB, some say 'yes', some say 'no'!! Theres too many conflicting stories!
As for the suicide thing, I found this (farmers are 13th... electricians are 15th!!)
Highest Suicide Rate by Profession | New Health Guide
I feel quite averse to the idea of the badger cull, even more so after the failed practise run.. and as for fox hunting, I just cant get my head around hunting an animal with a great pack of dogs for fun... just doesn't make sense.
However.. my mother has cattle (only 6) and most of her farmer friends feel strongly in favour of the cull due to the absolute devastation TB causes. I dont know if the badgers spread TB, some say 'yes', some say 'no'!! Theres too many conflicting stories!
As for the suicide thing, I found this (farmers are 13th... electricians are 15th!!)
Highest Suicide Rate by Profession | New Health Guide
D
davesparks
Humans can carry TB, shall we cull the human race too?
We should let nature take its course, it will win in the end whatever happens.
Mucking about with the Eco system is ridiculous, unnatural changes in population of one animal will affect the population of it preditors and it's prey. So next we'll have too many of something and something else dying out.
G
guest119
That's the point, though. Within the larger eco-system, humans are part of that chain, and nature designed us to be. We have very few predators, and none in any meaningful number (unless you want to get pedantic at a micro-biological level), we are MEANT to be a part of the control of other species - like badgers.
In it's easiest form: Humans = Waste = Rats = Disease = Less Humans = Less Waste = Less Rats = Less Disease = More Humans....... et al.
However, where the process goes wrong is that for reasons of greed or naivety we have found ways of interfering with that circle of life, and the gyroscopic behavior of Nature takes some time to adjust back again. Like a few thousand years.
what is giving the badgers tb in the first place, get rid of the source not part of the chain
G
Guest77
still no need to go around shooting badgers in my view, I appreciate Rocks post, yes it was well written and sensible to a degree. I don't like the fact foxes are hunted either, we have incredible wildlife here which has been around a long time, how do europeans manage?
By actively managing the wild environment by selective culling and hunting.
Did you know, for example, that unless you cull on an annual basis something like 30-40% of a wild deer herd (I can't remember the exact numbers but they're that kind of scale) it is actually detrimental to the longevity of the whole herd as the older stags attack the younger ones thus eventually the herd dying out? And we have a (dangerous) abundance of wild deer in this country, despite an active community of stalkers that shoot them for their own good.
Beatrix Potter has a lot to answer for!!!
T
trev
No no no, farmers have the highest rates. Oh sorry, 4th highest rates but that's still pretty high.
Erm
Oh bolleaux
G
Guest77
yes yes but whats that got to do with slaughtering badgers?
Its all part of the same principle...culling (or, more viscerally, hunting prey) is an essential part of the zoological chain whether you are a deer, a badger or a butterfly. Given that Badgers have no natural predators other than us, and we (wrongfully) decided to 'protect' them as well, if left unchecked in xyz years we will have no countryside left. The Badgers will have killed every last other edible animal, so the birds/bees/etc will also be dead so the flowers won't pollinate....And so on and so on. So, in light of that, I say controlled culling is a very positive thing indeed.
And I haven't even referenced TB or cows in that.
And I haven't even referenced TB or cows in that.
G
Guest77
I don't agree at all with that, if that is true why are there birds and bees now? badgers have been protected for a loooooooooooong time and they have not eaten everything have they? I see wild life everywhere when I go for a walk, it is only the last 2 years a cull has been authorized and wrongly IMO, appreciate your views, I just cannot agree with wiping them out, just doesn't make sense to me at all.
Maybe slightly of topic but man has a lot to answer for buggering up the cycle of nature.
Watched a program last night presented by David Attenborough where in Peru they collected guano for years on this island.
It said that whilst the birds covered the island with guano they also release at least 5 times more into the sea.
This fertlized seaplants which was eaten by anchovies, these anchovies where eaten by the birds that supplied the guano also anchovies where eaten by tuna and other fish eaten by man.
Man came along and in 1 year decimated the anchovy population by over fishing thls decimated the bird population which supplied the guano on the island and in the sea which in turn decimated the plant life in the sea.
No guano = no seaplants = no anchovies = no birds = no guano
Watched a program last night presented by David Attenborough where in Peru they collected guano for years on this island.
It said that whilst the birds covered the island with guano they also release at least 5 times more into the sea.
This fertlized seaplants which was eaten by anchovies, these anchovies where eaten by the birds that supplied the guano also anchovies where eaten by tuna and other fish eaten by man.
Man came along and in 1 year decimated the anchovy population by over fishing thls decimated the bird population which supplied the guano on the island and in the sea which in turn decimated the plant life in the sea.
No guano = no seaplants = no anchovies = no birds = no guano
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A
Adam W
That seems to be the crux of it - city dwellers who don't understand what's happening see the management of wildlife population as nasty farmers with personal vendettas against Mr Fox and Mr Badger.
Not so long ago there was a thread about speed limits. I said I didn't see why the blanket solution to road safety was simply to put up a sign and reduce the speed limit, and I was told the people who reduce the speed limits are professionals who know what they're doing and I should mind my own business.
It seems to me that this is one of those situations where the armchair activists should leave countryside issues to those who understand them and don't have their judgement clouded by the image of characters from childrens' books running around the woods.
Brave. But well said.
A
Adam W
Well it wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone just agreed with each other.
G
GMES
..nothing makes my blood boil more than people moaning saying hunting is wrong
they eat meat for gods sake, the only ones that imho are allowed to moan are vegans lol.
take my dear old gran, firmly against hunting but loves eating venison?
S
Silly Sausage
Geordie reckons nowt'll stop her! :smilielol5:
T
trev
Shanky I'm happy to eat meat but I think the way veal is made is horrific, the same applies to paté dé fois gras.
S
Silly Sausage
Re Veal, I don't your fears apply in these more enlightened times.
T
trev
I also think that the non stunning methods of killing animals should not be allowed.
really?
stunning doesnt always work.
the only 100% guarentied method to bd humane is to gas them to put them to sleep.
i was watching farm to fork or whatever it was called and the stunning failed so they had to shoot them anyway
T
trev
Yes it doesn't always work but hanging them up by their back legs and slitting their throats while they're awake and aware is barbaric. From what I can make out stunning works in the vast majority of cases.
i think your confusing it with hallal/jewish method.
normally captive bolt to the head or stunned with backup incase it fails.
T
trev
If I killed our dog by tw@ing him over the head with a shovel I could rightly expect to be dragged before a court on animal cruelty charges. Why is it ok to kill an another animal cruelly because of some bizarre requirement in an old book supposedly given to us by a bloke who lives in the sky?
A
Adam W
Presumably she eats the venison which comes wrapped in plastic from the supermarket, not the flesh of Bambi's dead mother.
T
trev
I'm not confusing it with halal or kosher methods mate. That's exactly what I'm talking about, I think it's completely wrong that a practice which demands the animal is awake and aware while it bleeds to death while hanging by it's back legs or aspirates it's own blood is allowed because of the demands of an old book. No matter which old book it is.
J
jaypp
Has anyone got a fatwa for a post on an electricians forum yet?:leaving:
T
trev
Not that I know of but I've probably got one for some of my questions on twitter on #askislamicstate
NB I'm not saying that only halal slaughter is wrong, I'm saying kosher methods are too.
G
Guest111
Hang on there mate,I take exception to that remark! For years farmers have had a raw deal,milk company's like Arla and Muller have been allowed to dictate milk prices to farmers,often with farmers making as little as 1p per litre on a pint.Given the amount of work involved in rearing cattle this is peanuts.I was and still am involved with a farm that produces and stores grain,we've had to be out at 3am recently to get grain harvested before it spoils due to the bad weather,when you see the invoices for the cost of agrochemicals,which run into many thousands then if there's a glut at harvest the price for your grain drops like a stone.My mate who owns the farm has just bought himself an A7 second hand,the first car he's had in years as all the money he's made in previous years has been reinvested into the farm.Farming is a 24/7 365 job,the cows still need milking on christmas day,the sheep still need feeding even in the worst snowy winters,and getting someone who you can trust to look after everything so you can have a holiday is nigh on impossible.
Take a look at real farmers on real farms in real life situations,I'm sure you'll change your opinion.
G
Guest111
Thank god for sanity Trev,my mate who is a well respected vet wrote an article on halal slaughter as part of an attempt to get it outlawed (at the government's behest),our spineless government hung him out to dry when the muslims started raving,the police were not interested when groups of them started hanging around outside his home,they even accused him of being racist when he said he felt intimidated and threatened by it all.
Mike......have to say that I'm with Phil on this. Yes, a successful farmer will show the fruits of his profit, the same as any business. Your assertion that 'all farmers' drive 80k range rovers is nonsense. If you'd have said instead that Farmers work every hour there is, in all weathers, doing hard hard physical labour, growing their businesses in a declining market, having a responsibility for managing the countryside that you were talking about earlier....etc....then I might be in agreement. But just to have some misplaced view that all farmers are silver-spooned conservatives that deserve a knock down is both flawed, unfair and downright ignorant.
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