@andyb and @nicebutdim really nice to see a civilised discussion. I find myself agreeing with both points of view.

democracy isn’t perfect in either eu or uk.

I'm happy for people to hold any opinion and can fully understand why many people wished to remain in the EU. While I wanted out, I fully expected to be disappointed and thought that undecided voters would be likely to stick with the status quo.

Given how Eu institutions are structured, it is possible to argue that they are democratic, undemocratic or even anti-democratic and make valid points for each position.

One other issue that was briefly mentioned in this thread is proportional representation. I'm broadly in favour of this in principle, but don't feel it is quite so great in practice. The political reality of NI dictates that it is the only practical system we can use, but would caution against its use in GB. PR rarely results in majority governance, with the result often being political deadlock and few decisions ever being made.

First past the post voting certainly isn't ideal, but at least decisions can be made. If those decisions are good, then people might re-elect a government. If the decisions are poor or unpopular, then other parties can be chosen a few years later. Fortune favours the brave and I see no benefit to never ending parliamentary debate.
 
Just shows how out of touch Cameron was with the country. I voted to stay in but we're out now and I'm not a 'remoaner', what's done is done and all the European laws apart from the trading ones are nothing to do with us any more so why are we even debating it further?. We will get what we get and i am sure we'll get by somehow, we usually do.
 
He only did a referendum cause he thought the majority of people were going to vote to stay in.

Just shows how out of touch Cameron was with the country. I voted to stay in but we're out now and I'm not a 'remoaner', what's done is done and all the European laws apart from the trading ones are nothing to do with us any more so why are we even debating it further?. We will get what we get and i am sure we'll get by somehow, we usually do.

But that’s the point people like yourselves, no offence, can’t grasp. He committed to something Cameron couldn’t guarantee to win. Previous PM’s didn’t want to risk it.

The debate had been around for years, with no one wishing to grasp the nettle.
 
But that’s the point people like yourselves, no offence, can’t grasp. He committed to something Cameron couldn’t guarantee to win. Previous PM’s didn’t want to risk it.

No offence taken mate.
The point I was making was that they had already been told by focus groups (or whatever you want to call it) that the majority of people would vote to stay in. If the result would have come back that the majority of people wanted to leave, then we would not have had a referendum.
 
No offence taken either,I'm on your side Midwest. I don't appear to be as educated as you fellas but my point is a very simple one. Sorry for the cliche but we are where we are,there's a lot of things I don't like but I have to accept democracy and we can't change a thing about the past. Mistakes or misjudgements were undoubtedly made but what can we do about it now.
 
Cameron only made the decision to hold a referendum because the conservatives were coming under extreme pressure from the UKIP party and they were concerned they were not going to be re -elected. It was his attempt to put the issue to bed,not for one moment did he think the referendum would go against him
 
We are out now and have to get on with it, due to the pandemic and not Brexit it will take 30 years to recover financially now anyhow, our grand kids will pick up the bill from the virus, I was a stayer but now think it is irrelevent whether in or out, I expect in the next 10 years one or two more EU countries to leave as well, apart from the eastern nations it is now costing the richer nations more than they put in and there is unrest in some countries, even the french people are close to 50-50 now lol
 
Cameron only made the decision to hold a referendum because the conservatives were coming under extreme pressure from the UKIP party and they were concerned they were not going to be re -elected. It was his attempt to put the issue to bed,not for one moment did he think the referendum would go against him
Well he was the only conservative pm to go for it, whether he thought he’d win or not. Let’s not forget May who hedged her bets about the matter, took over afterwards.
 
Yes he was that's true ,but only because he was backed into a corner by ukip and his own party members ,many of whose views on europe aligned with ukip.
His and Osbornes arrogant london centric outlook were certain that they would win the referendum and quash the ante euro rebellion within the Tory ranks and free them up to further enmesh us into the euro machination
 
Was last nights news a prime example of anti-Europe, pro brexit propaganda?

One report told of the EU demanding to be notified when Pfizer vaccine was being exported from Belgium, into Britain. Stand by for thousands of doses to go off, waiting for the paperwork, as this is the one than needs very low temperature for storing.

The other was news of goods travelling from mainland UK in Northern Island. Extra paperwork for alcohol (even Amazon won’t deliver it) or goods made from animals. Apparently cheese needs a vets certificate.
 
Yes he was that's true ,but only because he was backed into a corner by ukip and his own party members ,many of whose views on europe aligned with ukip.
His and Osbornes arrogant london centric outlook were certain that they would win the referendum and quash the ante euro rebellion within the Tory ranks and free them up to further enmesh us into the euro machination
Not a fan of his then ?
 
cameron thought he could get the UK a better deal. the referendum taught him it's fatal to deal with the devil (EU).
 
cameron thought he could get the UK a better deal. the referendum taught him it's fatal to deal with the devil (EU).
Cameron was under severe pressure from his back bench MPs and thought the country wouldn't want to leave the EU, He gambled with our future and lost, IMO he is lower than a snakes belly for doing that, he should have stood up against his MPs, the same MPs who are now putting Boris under pressure to re-open the schools, we will have a eat out to help out scheme again soon and the whole place will be back into 1500 deaths a day again after, still as long as the MPs are happy
 
problem with schools being closed, parents (like my son) can't get childcare, need time off work for a pittance of statutory sick pay. can't pay the rent etc.,etc.
 
Yes he was that's true ,but only because he was backed into a corner by ukip and his own party members ,many of whose views on europe aligned with ukip.
His and Osbornes arrogant london centric outlook were certain that they would win the referendum and quash the ante euro rebellion within the Tory ranks and free them up to further enmesh us into the euro machination

Cameron did expect to win the referendum, but he also expected to gain some small comcessions from the EU. Had the latter happened, it would likely have tipped the balance in favour of remaining and also would have left him in a position of not having to even hold a referendum.

Was last nights news a prime example of anti-Europe, pro brexit propaganda?

One report told of the EU demanding to be notified when Pfizer vaccine was being exported from Belgium, into Britain. Stand by for thousands of doses to go off, waiting for the paperwork, as this is the one than needs very low temperature for storing.

The other was news of goods travelling from mainland UK in Northern Island. Extra paperwork for alcohol (even Amazon won’t deliver it) or goods made from animals. Apparently cheese needs a vets certificate.

On the AstraZeneca issue, the EU really have done themselves no favours at all. Putting aside the debunked German media reports about this vaccine, which may or may not have been disseminated by an EU source, the EU's own actions have been shockingly poor.

Robert Peston is generally considered to be pro-EU, but his twitter summary of events was so damning of the EU's actions, that he was rounded upon by those generally supportive of his reporting.

Here's an interview from La Repubblica with AstraZenica's CEO, which explains their position and should provide a reasonably concise run down of the issue. I'm not generally sympathetic towards large pharmaceutical companies, but found it to be an honest and enlightening exchange.
 
Was last nights news a prime example of anti-Europe, pro brexit propaganda?

One report told of the EU demanding to be notified when Pfizer vaccine was being exported from Belgium, into Britain. Stand by for thousands of doses to go off, waiting for the paperwork, as this is the one than needs very low temperature for storing.

The other was news of goods travelling from mainland UK in Northern Island. Extra paperwork for alcohol (even Amazon won’t deliver it) or goods made from animals. Apparently cheese needs a vets certificate.
Makes a change from pro europe and the anti brexit the bias BBC has been spewing for years.

got so sick of the BBC I stopped watching it.

the So called comedy panel shows are prime example. If you toed the line ( remainer ) you where on the panel. If you didn’t, you where out.

when they did allow a so called minority leaver on the panels they would be slated.

true non bias tv.
 
Makes a change from pro europe and the anti brexit the bias BBC has been spewing for years.

got so sick of the BBC I stopped watching it.

the So called comedy panel shows are prime example. If you toed the line ( remainer ) you where on the panel. If you didn’t, you where out.

when they did allow a so called minority leaver on the panels they would be slated.

true non bias tv.
About time the Licence fee was abandoned IMO, a load of rubbish on the BBC and unless you are Disabled, Non heterosexual or female you have no chance of employment there either these days lmao, what a shambles
 
About time the Licence fee was abandoned IMO, a load of rubbish on the BBC and unless you are Disabled, Non heterosexual or female you have no chance of employment there either these days lmao, what a shambles
TBH I have no problem with the BBC diversity in regard to colour, sex, orientation, religion etc....

in fact they have done brilliantly in that area.

but they have forgotten political diversity.
 
TBH I have no problem with the BBC diversity in regard to colour, sex, orientation, religion etc....

in fact they have done brilliantly in that area.

but they have forgotten political diversity.
I don't think so Pal, they have gone too far with over promoting minorities rather than the best man or woman for the job, far to over the top, politically, yep I agree there they are so far left even Putin won't watch it
 
I don't think so Pal, they have gone too far with over promoting minorities rather than the best man or woman for the job, far to over the top, politically, yep I agree there they are so far left even Putin won't watch it
Agree to disagree on that one. Minorities have been under reprisented for years. In fact they still are, but the improvements are dramatic.

what you are seeing is a nearer normal representation. It’s just that it hasn’t been normal for years that when it happened so suddenly we all thought this isn’t right because we are not used to the true normal on the BBC.

cant believe I’m defending the BBC after slating it for biast, but that is absolutely a different debate.
 
You've raised some excellent points and one that I was unaware of was the fact that UK cabinet members need not be elected members of parliament. I learn something new every day!

Special advisors can wield significant influence, but it should be remembered that decisions aren't ultimately taken by those advisors. How our elected MPs come to make decisions is their own business, but if we aren't happy about that process they may find themselves not being returned at the next election. Similarly if we are dissatisfied with individual MPs, or an entire government, we can throw them out at the next election.

The Council of the European Union makes laws by qualified majority and the manner in which they do so directly contravenes the UK's constitution.

I'm not sure that I follow your logic on the European Commission. It is the executive branch of government within the EU, yet only commission members get to decide who joins. Member states propose commissioners, but the commission reserves the right to reject those proposed candidates. It was though this system of self-appointment that Ursula Von Der leyen came to be president of the commission. A list of candidates was drawn up by member states in the European Council, yet each and every one of those candidates was rejected. To resolve this unfortunate state of affairs, the commission put forward their own candidate and the European Parliament duly voted again - unusually that vote provided a single option - Ursula Von Der Leyen - and even in a one horse race she almost failed to secure the presidency!

One other huge issue is the European Court of Justice. This court is one of the EU's seven institutions, but isn't counted as one of the three legislative institutions. Despite not being a legislative institution, the ECJ regularly and deliberately ignores EU treaties and rewrites them as they see fit. This single issue was probably the main reason we came to hold a referendum on EU membership. No matter what member states agree, the ECJ has the power to ignore that which it finds inconvenient and implement new laws as and when it pleases.

Would you accept only having a say in local council elections and then trusting those councillors to decide who should govern the whole country? Neither would I but, while not directly comparable, that's as close an analogy as I can think of


I'm glad we agree on the need for EU reform, but it was on this very subject that David Cameron was sent home with his tail between his legs and found himself in the position of either delivering the promised membership referendum or going down in history as yet another Prime Minister who failed to fulfil such a promise. Maybe the EU will undergo reform, but I suspect much of that would be window dressing and, at this point, any future reform comes too late for those who wish to make the case for continued UK membership. Horse, door, bolted.
We're not miles apart, I'd go as far as to say that I'm a lot less comfortable defending EU democracy than you are the UKs. My main point is that we're not a particularly democratic country.

However, I will say that the European Commision in my view is not too dissimilar to our own cabinet.
Legislation and direction comes from our cabinet, but it is parliament that has to vote it through. And like I say, our cabinet is appointed by the PM. The commision is appointed also but we're guaranteed at least one position on it.

The ECJ just rules on EU law as far as I know. If you're in any sort of international agreement you will need a court of some sort to sort out disputes. When we trade on WTO terms, who do you think will rule on any disputes? not our courts that's for sure. And once again, we had a judge on the court, I doubt we'll have one for the WTO, and though I don't know what court will oversee any disputes between ourselves and the US, you can bet it will be in America.

As for your local council analogy, I'd just say that we do. We elect one MP in the general election who then has a say in who governs the whole country.

I'll finish with saying that since you threw in the ECJ, I'll chip in with first past the post voting. Even I could see that, as much as I disliked them, UKIP were underrepresented in our parliament, as are the Greens now.
 
We're not miles apart, I'd go as far as to say that I'm a lot less comfortable defending EU democracy than you are the UKs. My main point is that we're not a particularly democratic country.

However, I will say that the European Commision in my view is not too dissimilar to our own cabinet.
Legislation and direction comes from our cabinet, but it is parliament that has to vote it through. And like I say, our cabinet is appointed by the PM. The commision is appointed also but we're guaranteed at least one position on it.

The ECJ just rules on EU law as far as I know. If you're in any sort of international agreement you will need a court of some sort to sort out disputes. When we trade on WTO terms, who do you think will rule on any disputes? not our courts that's for sure. And once again, we had a judge on the court, I doubt we'll have one for the WTO, and though I don't know what court will oversee any disputes between ourselves and the US, you can bet it will be in America.

As for your local council analogy, I'd just say that we do. We elect one MP in the general election who then has a say in who governs the whole country.

I'll finish with saying that since you threw in the ECJ, I'll chip in with first past the post voting. Even I could see that, as much as I disliked them, UKIP were underrepresented in our parliament, as are the Greens now.

I don't think we are miles apart.

Your MP can table bills, or ammendments to bills, in parliament. This isn't something that might need to happen regularly, but this has led to some great (and some terrible) legislation, but it is a valuable part of our parliamentary process.

I commented elsewhere about FPTP and PR. There are pro's and cons to each, but my personal reservations about PR are drawn from living under regular political deadlock in NI. That same deadlock can often be witnessed in other parts of the EU and can be crippling for a country. Obviously there are many benefits to PR, but my personal opinion is that I don't like it.

The ECJ isn't a legislative body, but I brought it into the discussion as it has the power to create legislation without adhering to the rules, around which the EU is supposed to fuinction. As such it technically is a legislative body, but worryingly it can carry out this function without oversight.
 
I don't think we are miles apart.

Your MP can table bills, or ammendments to bills, in parliament. This isn't something that might need to happen regularly, but this has led to some great (and some terrible) legislation, but it is a valuable part of our parliamentary process.

I commented elsewhere about FPTP and PR. There are pro's and cons to each, but my personal reservations about PR are drawn from living under regular political deadlock in NI. That same deadlock can often be witnessed in other parts of the EU and can be crippling for a country. Obviously there are many benefits to PR, but my personal opinion is that I don't like it.

The ECJ isn't a legislative body, but I brought it into the discussion as it has the power to create legislation without adhering to the rules, around which the EU is supposed to fuinction. As such it technically is a legislative body, but worryingly it can carry out this function without oversight.
I've always been a defender of FPTP, I even voted for the status quo at the AV referendum. But since 2010 we've had a coalition and May spending a couple of billion to buy the DUP and I'm moving more to the PR side of things. Though I'm happy to admit I have no idea what type would be best for the UK.
Also I've had enough at last of my vote not counting, being in an ultra safe Tory seat.
Other countries make it work, and some seem to have endless coalitions. Probally won't happen.
 
The closest we came to PR was when the liberals under Clegg pushed for it as a condition for
giving their support to form a coalition. They settled on a diluted form - AV . That was a real chance for something they have long campaigned for wasted. Personally I dont think it will ever happen.
 

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