Fixings to kingspan for hanging tray

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edexlab

edexlab

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I've been asked to look at a method to fix tray hanging via threaded rod or something similar fixed to a kingspan roof , this is not the building roof btw but part of a machine enclosure

Normally I'd punch a small old screwdriver in and use self tappers/tekscrews to fix unistrut and hang it from this,
not the ideal but it does work
( nb punched as it gives a bit more metal surface for the screw to bite on rather than just the thickness of the metal skin if you were to drill it)

Threaded rod through the kingspan bolted above is not allowable and riveting blind rivets or rivnuts are probably not sufficient really
so I'm just checking if there are any other methods used that I've not come across/thought of
Any sensible ideas would be much appreciated
 
You could look at how the Kingspan was fixed and whether the existing fixings could be adapted/extended to give you fixings for the tray. But I'd expect the number and size of the pre-existing fixings might be too low.


If the Kingspan is removable you might be able to weld or glue (epoxy) nutplates to the metal ceiling, and fit threaded rod thru the Kingspan.

Let us know what you end up doing.
 
Strut between walls can't be done here as it would interfere with the conveyor systems otherwise it probably would have worked.


Op said rod cannot go through to other side of kingspan.

Something like the fastbrolly, snaptoggle I've used both on board but would need to be pretty heavy duty more so than the aluminium types I've seen so may be a possibility if I can find a stronger type.
Thanks for the replies gents!

"Sky hooks" I was waiting for the idiot who was going to ignore the request for sensible answers..........
And you are it Maddison! Well done!
Must have taken you all afternoon to come up with that one!
I love a good laugh but at least think of something that isn't as old as the ark if you are going to try and be funny........................
 
Says the bloke who want to fix cable tray to kingspan!
I don't think any form of fixing is going to work in what is basically a load of fluff sandwiched between 2 bits of tinfoil.

I'm sure I'm not the only person here wondering if you yourself are on a windup?

King span is going to have no load bearing abilities in that plane so you need to fix to something else.

What is holding the kingspan up?
 
edexlab said:
Strut between walls can't be done here as it would interfere with the conveyor systems otherwise it probably would have worked.


Op said rod cannot go through to other side of kingspan.

Something like the fastbrolly, snaptoggle I've used both on board but would need to be pretty heavy duty more so than the aluminium types I've seen so may be a possibility if I can find a stronger type.
Thanks for the replies gents!

"Sky hooks" I was waiting for the idiot who was going to ignore the request for sensible answers..........
And you are it Maddison! Well done!
Must have taken you all afternoon to come up with that one!
I love a good laugh but at least think of something that isn't as old as the ark if you are going to try and be funny........................
Click to expand...
if its low down then a unistrut frame bolted to floor.


how is unistrut blocking conveyot btw?

he probably meant along ceiling then bolted to wall with rod hangers.

sorry but we cant be too specific because we havent seen the place or job
 
davesparks said:
I'm sure I'm not the only person here wondering if you yourself are on a windup?
Click to expand...

You're not!

edexlab, you need to post some pics up.

e-needpics.gif
 
No it's not a wind up ! Genuine request for alternative ideas
Can't give pics sorry but hopefully a better description of the installation
I've been asked to look for other ways to fix cable tray in what is essentially a kingspan box, at present the install methods (not mine) are to use 6" max tray upside down and fixed to a box section frame which runs along the enclosure,
it has to go on the ceiling as there are hanging conveyors moving products around the different processes floor level is not practical as the cables would be caked in a byproduct which sets very quickly harder than concrete!

Cables go to equipment outside and within the cell
No penetrations of the kingspan is allowed as the product treatment is critical and historically there have been issues

The span between the box section is 1.5 m min 2m max and basically they're looking to turn the tray over and hang it from more regularly spaced supports fixed to the kingspan and not necessarily the box section frame if possible , this is to reduce time installing and for more flexibility in cable runs etc

I've suggested several other things already like ladder racking fixed to the frame as its more supported, or unistrut fixed to the frame across the spans but someone senior is not keen and wants other options to consider before committing to a install method
Its not carrying large numbers of cables and they are fairly small in csa.
So essentially as in the op I'm looking for a good way to fix tray rod hangers to kingspan! The install itself is fairly irrespective its a fixing method problem
 
Try speaking to the king span technical department directly about methods of fixing into their products for a suspended load, and also the load rating that it can support.

When they've finished laughing you can go to the boss and knock the cotton wool out of his head so he can see that attempting to fix in to fluff when an existing box section frame is available is nonsense.
 
So which idiot has issues with you tram lining uni and dropping your hangers down from that? That would be top of my list in that sort of situation everytime
 
Btw dave I don't use the forum for windups and stupid questions and never have.
I always do my own research before posting and as I can't find anything which seems suitable for this , hence I'm asking here, as another member may have had to do something similar, this is not my idea or reccomendation to fix to kingspan but it's what I've been asked to explore as a possible method
I think thats reasonable enough
apologies about the lack of info on the install originally but I didn't think it was relevant!

And where I'm working now there are several people who come up with daft ideas and ignore the sensible suggestions as in many places it's unfortunately not unusual!
 
edexlab said:
Btw dave I don't use the forum for windups and stupid questions and never have.
I always do my own research before posting and as I can't find anything which seems suitable for this , hence I'm asking here, as another member may have had to do something similar, this is not my idea or reccomendation to fix to kingspan but it's what I've been asked to explore as a possible method
I think thats reasonable enough
apologies about the lack of info on the install originally but I didn't think it was relevant!

And where I'm working now there are several people who come up with daft ideas and ignore the sensible suggestions as in many places it's unfortunately not unusual!
Click to expand...

OK, how about using poor thermally conducting materials.
A square metre (say) sheet above the Kingspan with a rod dropped down to below, to hang your tray off.
As has already been asked, how is the KS fixed to the ceilings?

Or, maybe you could employ the use of catenary wires?


Hard to say without being onsite! :)
 
With a passion mate, if he's so set against using common sense hand him your tools and tell him you'll come hang the tray once he's sorted some supports

stick to your guns and grind him down mate a set of tram lines is head and shoulders above trying to do anything with kingspan, out of interest what's the process?and if you penetrated the steel on the other side of the kingspan and sealed it afterwards why is here an issue with that method?definately don't envy you I hope he's paying you well for the ball ache he's causing
 
I've just reread some of the threads and noticed some reference to the type of kingspan used as insulation (sandwiched between tin foil) this is not the type used here!
I'm talking about the stuff they use for industrial buildings has @1mm (I think) steel sheets with insulation between!
 
Catenary wires also not of any use here due to reasons already mentioned plus there would need to be a few to replace 6" tray which wouldn't look good!
Can I reiterate its a decent fixing method that is relevant here not the install!
 
edexlab said:
I've just reread some of the threads and noticed some reference to the type of kingspan used as insulation (sandwiched between tin foil) this is not the type used here!
I'm talking about the stuff they use for industrial buildings has @1mm (I think) steel sheets with insulation between!
Click to expand...

Right, it sounds just a little bit more viable now then, I think most people think of the standard insulating board when you say 'kingspan'

The question of what it holding the kingspan in place is still relevant, and the existing box section supports will still be infinately better. the call to kingspan technical will probably be slightly more productive too.

If it is 1mm steel sheet you'll probably get self drilling screws to hold fast in it, but you'll want a nut plate with as big a footprint as possible and a fair few fixing holes.
 
So the insulated steel sheets are laid ontop of the steel box sections and fixed from the top??

The he only other things I can think of is but some uni up to the box sections and weld them or drill and tap the box section and screw the rods into it and lock off with nuts but as you say the spacing of the box sections aren't ideal
 
Cockney reject
The process is environmental controls for moulds used for aerospace and other precision products.
They are a professional company, a world leader in this industry and this install method has been used for sometime, they're trying to break away from the "that's the way we've always done it" mentality and improve things for the product itself and the guys who install it and asked for suggestions on improvements that can be made,
This was one such suggestion, I've been given the job of looking at its viability as the guy who mentioned it just said you can't do it ,but didn't have any clue how to do it as he's only ever worked here!
Whereas I come from an installation background electrically and previously in engineering, but as usual they don't want to spend too much doing it
 
The kingspan is self supporting really its built tight around the frame and rests upon it, but not fixed to it, however its not going anywhere,
they use angled flashing rivetted to it so it's strong enough to walk on due to the box section spans below.
I've already suggested welding drilling and tapping unistrut to frame etc but the present method is the inverted tray is on unistrut screwed to tapped holes in the box section, the idea is to reduce the distance of the supports for the tray and lower the amount of work onsite by using a quicker fixing method to reduce the time spent and give the option of running directly to equipment rather than taking a more indirect route by following the frame work .
 
Ah right not been able to penetrate the ceiling fully makes more sense now, bit of a rock and a hard place situation then, I'd give up on looking for fixing methods through 1mm steel that will take the weight of the tray and the cables, use the kingspan tech department to your advantage hit the guy who's saying no to your preferred method with the facts and give him the big sell on the way you want to do it
 
The best thing would be to mount uni strut to the existing frame and then mount your tray to that I would think.
However if you must fit to the KS, If its the stuff I am thinking of you can sucessfully mount low weights to it using self tapping screws and support brackets.
I would think lots of top hat brackets would do the trick, Or if you need to put more weight on it can you fix a large spreader plate/s to the KS and then mount brackets and tray to that.
I dont see drilling right through being a problem as long as the holes are sealed back up properly (unless of course they are vac chambers or something?)
 
Drill a hole, spray water Into it, gorilla glue the rod, screw it in, leave it a day.

That stuffs the nuts, it expands into all the little holes and the threads. Should give enough for your tray.
 
Yeah I get all the good jobs lol story of my life!
I've done this kind of thing before, large chiller units, threaded rod through kingspan into strut above and below! in areas non visible to client plus it really was the only option!
However this product does look really good when finished so I can see why they're not keen on having strut visible on top of the cells, they'd have to hide it which is then creating more work, not the original intention!
 
sammyshooter said:
Drill a hole, spray water Into it, gorilla glue the rod, screw it in, leave it a day.

That stuffs the nuts, it expands into all the little holes and the threads. Should give enough for your tray.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying your idea won't work it just doesn't sound
A) professional

B) like it'll last 20+ yrs which is the intended life of the product

No offence meant!
 
Tiny I can't see the issue myself I know you can get covers for the rod and nut above , which look fine but apparently there was a problem previously which only happened on jobs where the kingspan was drilled through, I'm not sure what it was but I'm guessing a sealant may have not perfomed as it was meant to.
 
edexlab said:
Tiny I can't see the issue myself I know you can get covers for the rod and nut above , which look fine but apparently there was a problem previously which only happened on jobs where the kingspan was drilled through, I'm not sure what it was but I'm guessing a sealant may have not perfomed as it was meant to.
Click to expand...
if you drill with bolts in strut above to below it will be airtight, put some rubber under it if they want to create a seal as such
 
sammyshooter said:
Drill a hole, spray water Into it, gorilla glue the rod, screw it in, leave it a day.

That stuffs the nuts, it expands into all the little holes and the threads. Should give enough for your tray.
Click to expand...

Apart from the bit where the solvent in the glue reacts with the fluff in the kingspan and leaves a gaping void in the middle of it you mean?

In theory both the kingspan fluff and the glue will be polyurethane, but we don't know how the liquid and solid forms will react with each other.
 
edexlab said:
Strut between walls can't be done here as it would interfere with the conveyor systems otherwise it probably would have worked.


Op said rod cannot go through to other side of kingspan.

Something like the fastbrolly, snaptoggle I've used both on board but would need to be pretty heavy duty more so than the aluminium types I've seen so may be a possibility if I can find a stronger type.
Thanks for the replies gents!

"Sky hooks" I was waiting for the idiot who was going to ignore the request for sensible answers..........
And you are it Maddison! Well done!
Must have taken you all afternoon to come up with that one!
I love a good laugh but at least think of something that isn't as old as the ark if you are going to try and be funny........................
Click to expand...

haha you bit hard on this "sky hook" didnt you.. lets just hope.nobody is underneath all that tray when those fixings fail.. keep up the good work
 
Maddison said:
haha you bit hard on this "sky hook" didnt you.. lets just hope.nobody is underneath all that tray when those fixings fail.. keep up the good work
Click to expand...
Nope I don't bite at comments like that, just feel a bit for you really!

Try contributing from your own knowledge and experience instead that's the general idea of answering posts!

As this is just a theoretical exercise at the moment I think there's as much chance of my tray falling down as there is of you being funny!

Can someone let me know about this ignore button and how it works please

If its not strong enough it won't be installed ,
I'm going to road test a few different methods of fixing/s and see how they fare.
 
edexlab said:
Tiny I can't see the issue myself I know you can get covers for the rod and nut above , which look fine but apparently there was a problem previously which only happened on jobs where the kingspan was drilled through, I'm not sure what it was but I'm guessing a sealant may have not perfomed as it was meant to.
Click to expand...

I would think if the holes were pumped full of silicone or something similar it would be ok?
Or possibly some kind of resin filler?

I used to work in a pressurised clean room environment and you would be amazed the leaks we could bodge up with some silicone lol
 
Tiny Spark said:
I would think if the holes were pumped full of silicone or something similar it would be ok?
Or possibly some kind of resin filler?

I used to work in a pressurised clean room environment and you would be amazed the leaks we could bodge up with some silicone lol
Click to expand...
we did a job in a cat3 lab, they builder had never done one before.

to make it even more fun, was an old room that was being converted lol, had more holes than a collinder into that room

pink foam as far as the eye could see XD
 
They would never accept more holes filled with silicone the odd accident maybe but as for sealing studs I can ask but I know they won't be keen it'd definitely have to look good! , the product is high end costing @100k for a smallish system up to several million for a larger job
I'm going to see if the rivnuts they use are substantial enough as this would probably be the easiest thing for them to accept as they're already in use for other things.
 
edexlab said:
No it's not a wind up ! Genuine request for alternative ideas
Can't give pics sorry but hopefully a better description of the installation
I've been asked to look for other ways to fix cable tray in what is essentially a kingspan box, at present the install methods (not mine) are to use 6" max tray upside down and fixed to a box section frame which runs along the enclosure,
it has to go on the ceiling as there are hanging conveyors moving products around the different processes floor level is not practical as the cables would be caked in a byproduct which sets very quickly harder than concrete!

Cables go to equipment outside and within the cell
No penetrations of the kingspan is allowed as the product treatment is critical and historically there have been issues

The span between the box section is 1.5 m min 2m max and basically they're looking to turn the tray over and hang it from more regularly spaced supports fixed to the kingspan and not necessarily the box section frame if possible , this is to reduce time installing and for more flexibility in cable runs etc

I've suggested several other things already like ladder racking fixed to the frame as its more supported, or unistrut fixed to the frame across the spans but someone senior is not keen and wants other options to consider before committing to a install method
Its not carrying large numbers of cables and they are fairly small in csa.
So essentially as in the op I'm looking for a good way to fix tray rod hangers to kingspan! The install itself is fairly irrespective its a fixing method problem
Click to expand...

Hi Edex, couple of questions that may make your problem a little easier for members to offer solutions.
How are the hanging conveyors supported or are they outside the kingspan cells?
If penetration is not allowed is this because the allowable penetration is exhausted elsewhere?
Would a support fixing system whereby a female adaptor fixed to steel allowed the male part to insert and turn 90 degrees to secure satisfy the need to reduce installation time?
I'm thinking manufactured plates with nuts to insert rod, fixed to steel via spot or chemical welding?
 
The conveyors are run "inside" along a track these tend to run around the cell, so it enters runs around the processes and then leaves the cell to go to another operation the track is fixed to the box section frame this is braced between runs etc so any cable tray run generally goes down the centre if possible and/or the sides but above the items on the conveyor
As mentioned before, tray is fixed upside down to pieces of unistrut (same width as tray) drilled and tapped/screwed to box section when there is an enclosed cell /non enclosed system the tray is on top of frame
Although there aren't huge numbers of holes to do, its drilling 6mm box and tapping overhead which takes a fair bit of time to do, they don't get it done by the fabricators as things do change ie customers request etc, the idea of manufactured brackets could be possible,
I have done a rough design which goes in the gap between the kingspan and box (3mm max) problems is it looks like a rough g clamp (cuz it is) and takes longer to make than to do the threaded holes, there are no products available I'm aware of which can do this
also it doesn't solve the issue of runs away from the frame, I'm hoping the rivnut idea will work as the jobs are built tested and stripped before shipping to destination where they are obviously recommissioned so this would be ideal.
 
Will they not go for plastic trunking and plastic conduit ? it can be screwed to the kingspan directly and siliconed to it as well for extra security. looks neat and matches the white face of the kingspan cheaper and easier to clean too.
 
Plastic Trunking has been tried before but the lid comes off in some environmental settings of the cell as some types are just not suitable when there are different temperatures being used ie in higher temps it becomes soft then theres the contraction/expansion as products with different settings are run.

Rivnuts is probably going to be what I'll use as its a product they already use elsewhere so they are familiar with its use
I'm looking at doing a run along one wall of kingspan as the tray on brackets (side on rather than angle/gallows brkts) there has a low load, but still waiting for a decision from the bosses re hanging the tray right side up on the ceiling ,they'll take their time before saying yay or nay!
 

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