Don't think so Sean, cleverer strategists than the likes of us mere mortals have been in discussions for weeks thinking of ways to sort out these extremists, I don't think denying them internet access would do the trick.
Don't think so Sean, cleverer strategists than the likes of us mere mortals have been in discussions for weeks thinking of ways to sort out these extremists, I don't think denying them internet access would do the trick.
Youve been a bit selective mentioning just one of the alternative ways to starve them - where are they getting the food they eat, the fuel for their new Toyota's, they appear to have an endless supply of fighters and weapons - everyone knows who is supporting them (some of whom are supposed to be our allies) - but I've said all this here before.
Perhaps you'd answer my question now, why are bombs dropped from British planes anymore effective than the masses already being dropped ?
FYI the Saudis have been using our so called smarter bombs over there for a long time, we've got nothing new to add.
Maybe we feel left out out the big boys game.
How do you kill a snake? chop it's head off, that's what, in my opinion is the option the UK has using the " Brimstone System" No one better that cutting the snakes head than the UK in my opinion.
As I've just said, the Saudis have been using them for a good while, we supplied the weapons being dropped now, we've trained the Saudis pilots how to use them - other Nations also have access to highly accurate weapons, the bomb the US dropped on that hospital was supposed to be smart - the folks guided it certainly weren't.
So, why would dropping them from our planes make any difference ?
So, why would dropping them from our planes make any difference ?
We could go on arguing all night long, you have you opinion and I have mine, personally I have better things to do that argue about what is our duty as an enlightened country it's not ideal, but that' s how I feel about what we should do.
Fair enough hope all is well with you and yours.
As far as im concerned what we now do in Iraq is an obligation rather than us just lending a helping hand.
Why is being a peace loving man such a bad thing ?
You also state "it could be us next"......Would you say that if it were say a splinter Russian group or a splinter Chinese group ? It seems to be the feeling that because we are "bigger" and have the backing of the playground bully ?
As you are aware we have been bombing isis for a while now in Iraq.....Has it helped ? Is there less "trouble" over there ?
As you may also be aware France and the rest have been doing air strikes in Syria every day for over a year now - Worked out well so far then ?
This time last year our government wanted Mp's to support air strikes....in support of Isis ffs.....1 year later they are the enemy lol.
A blind deaf mute can see that war = money. As far as I am concerned money and influence in that region is the only reason that the UK "want's" to go in here. There are thousands of "terrorist" groups all over the world blowing themselves and others to smithereens......we don't seem to concerned about the others.
Put it this way if this was an army then I would say get stuck in.If it were a country who for whatever reason we declared war on - same again get the troops in.
This is neither. This is like asking France, USA Nato ect to hit Ireland with airstrikes to root out the bad guys. Would we have been ok with that ?
Again we don't seem to learn from our mistakes nor even our successes.
In the words of Kenny Everret and his alter ego! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOHPZ51hAc
The Saudis are the head of the snake, nothing will change in terms of funding for militant Wahabi supporters until Saudi stops funding them with their billions of dollars of oil money. Even if Syria is invaded by a multi-national force (which would be more effective than just bombing in my opinion) the Salafists will just move to another country that has a small group of likeminded people, and Syria will just end up in the same mess that Iraq and Afghanistan are in now.
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Yep, and Turkey is the tail - they are as bad as each other. And those who could actually do something are just feathering their nest.
Philip Hammond accepts £2,000 watch from Saudi sheikh, despite ban on donating expensive gifts | UK Politics | News | The Independent
D
Deleted member 26818
My understanding, is that Hereford has been relocated, and is now even closer to Bristol and Birmingham?
Well closer to Birmingham at least.
As for Corbyn's stance on air strikes, it's simply down to whether they will achieve anything, or just be a waste of our money.
Well closer to Birmingham at least.
As for Corbyn's stance on air strikes, it's simply down to whether they will achieve anything, or just be a waste of our money.
Interesting debate. I have never been a Labour Party supporter. However, I feel I must agree with JC & some of his MP's, that the UK's now decided bombing of Daesh, will not have a huge impact, compared to that of our Allies. And we should consider alternatives. However, there are times when your head tells one thing and your heart tells you another.
I listened to some of the debate in the HoC, before our MP's voted. I have to say I was swayed by both sides of the argument. Ultimately, I think we must do something, not leased that the 'Security Council unanimously calls on member nations to fight Daesh', and France asks the UK to join the fight, and we can't give Daesh the oxygen of our reservation to fight them and support our Allies.
I think Hilary Benn's speech gave a good reasoning to support our Allies; Hilary Benn speech in full: 'We must now confront this evil' ? video | Politics | The Guardian
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing' Edmund Burke.
PS Hilary Benn for Labour Party Leader. :iagree:
I listened to some of the debate in the HoC, before our MP's voted. I have to say I was swayed by both sides of the argument. Ultimately, I think we must do something, not leased that the 'Security Council unanimously calls on member nations to fight Daesh', and France asks the UK to join the fight, and we can't give Daesh the oxygen of our reservation to fight them and support our Allies.
I think Hilary Benn's speech gave a good reasoning to support our Allies; Hilary Benn speech in full: 'We must now confront this evil' ? video | Politics | The Guardian
'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing' Edmund Burke.
PS Hilary Benn for Labour Party Leader. :iagree:
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So what are you saying? That she, instead of defending sovereign UK territory, that had been invaded by a foreign army, purely went to war to increase her popularity?
No .....
Some say she deliberately pulled HMS Endurance (against advice from the military) from the Falkland Islands knowing that the Argentinians would invade to distract their own population from the economic troubles their country was in, thereby forcing us into a war with Argentina which would boost her standing in the UK. Whether that is true I can't say.
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Y
YoungScud
Using Burke's quote is entirely disingenuous. Worse, it's not even germane to the arguments being made. I haven't heard one single opponent of this madness suggest that we do nothing. Lots of alternatives have been mooted, so don't even try to suggest they haven't. As for Benn's speech, it was nothing more than political grandstanding, and designed to out-manoeuvre Corbyn in the Labour power struggle between a party and its ruling elite.
G
Guest77
Nuke em :earmuffs:
There are many persons attributed to that quote (or words to that effect), not just EB. I used his name to ensure people didn't think it was my words :laugh3:
What do you mean by disingenuous (I've looked at the definition), perhaps you could expand? And I think it has got every relevance to the debate. Perhaps you could list the 'Lots of alternatives'; 'starving of food, stop them selling oil, stop their internet access', seem to remember another fascist tried starving us 75 years ago, it didn't work then, and won't work now. If we bomb their refineries, they won't have any to sell. Can't quite see that blocking access to the internet will work, might stop working out how to make bombs, but it won't stop them communicating.
I wouldn't disagree that bombing is just the answer, but it has haltered Daesh momentum in Iraqi.
As I said, I'm not a Labour Party supporter, but I do think it was a good speech. Have you listened to it? The 'Anti' speeches were no less reflective, but the debate that I watched, swayed me to think that the best decision had been made; only time will tell if the right decision has been made.
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YoungScud
It's disingenyous because, as I said, nobody is seriously suggesting doing nothing. The reasoning behind the bombing has nothing to do with taking on and defeating Deash and everything to do with world image. Right wingers, nationalists everywhere, love the diea that their country is considered as great, strong, decisive, to be feared. Cameron, Benn and their cronies speak directly to this ideal. Britain HAS to be seen as a world leader, as a worthy successor to Empire. What emerges external to these shores (and to those of us who, time and again have heard this kind of flag-waving guff before) is a faintly ridiculous, post-Imperial stamping of the feet.
Want to know what you apparently can't find out for yourself? Well, here it is. Unpopular as it may seem, it's clear from history that we, the US and a few others can't abide the idea of not being involved. I don't think we need to pretend that our poltical masters aren't beholden to the military/industrial complex. Weapons, oil, gas and other products make vast swathes of money. Oil particualrly services fossil fuel energy solutions which are ultimately unsustainable. Put some real effort into renewable energy and we reduce, perhaps even end, our reliance on oil. With that comes a realisation that out involvement in the Middle East is all about oil. It's got nothing to do with despotic regimes or terror. Cameron, having failed to convince Parliament to bomb a dictator, has now managed to persuade them instead to bomb that dictator's enemies. I mean, as long as we're bombing someone, we're at least seen to be doing something, right? Since it's pretty clear that our involvement in the Middle East is what puts us on the hit list for every nut job emanating from that region, not being involved might help us to join Iceland and Tuvalu and all the other nations who aren't. It's a nice thought, if unlikely.
Now, to more practical solutions, all of them being suggested by opponents of the present madness. How about, instead of sucking up to countries like Saudi Arabia, a country which funds and supports Daesh, along with spreading its foul ideology through Sunni mosques around the world, we, I don't know, maybe refuse to deal with them. Oh I know, British Aeropsace and others will lose orders, but think of the bribe money they'll save. While we're at it, istead of supporting Turkey's appalling human rights abuses, we issue an ultimatum. They start acting like human beings, or they get slung out of the club. This is probably idealistic, but if that doesn't happen, we could always leave the club ourselves. This would bring total NATO personnel from a bit over 7,000,000 to a tad under, so no great loss really, and we'd save on subscriptions, not to mention not being obliged to pour obscene amounts of money into an non-independent 'independent' nuclear folly. It's a funny thing, that. Nine UN nations have nuclear wepaons, which means 284 don't, and a few of them have managed to avoid war for the most part. Maybe then we could afford the NHS we deserve and stop the dumbing-down so beloved of the right.
We could work much harder to stop the marginalistaion of immigrant populations, which, by every economic measure, provide us a net benefit. I'm not thinking solely of the Muslim population, but it's that one which needs the most work at the moment. Radicalisation is clearly a problem and it needs to be addressed. Perceptions need to be changed if we are to halt the tide of impressionable youth from joining radical organisations such as Daesh. We have to stop obsessing about foreign immigrants 'assimilating' into Britsih culture. I wish I knew what 'British culture' is, by the way. Morris Dancing? Highland Dancing? Stricly Come Dancing? Instead, we need to embrace the idea that there is room for diversity. In fact, it's what makes any society vibrant and interesting. That way, immigrant populations can feel they are accepted without losing their identity.
Next, we need to stop reacting to every attack with the idea that we can somehow engage these morons in a straight, face-to-face fight. We can't and we know it. What we do know is that they carry out attacks to provoke a certain rweaction and we never disappoint. They want us to feel we can't have the freedoms they so despise, so what do we do? We erode those freedoms. I don't think I need expand on that. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you never will.
We also need to decide whether or not we really do want to end repressive regimes, or simply do what we have done and end repressive regimes inconvenient rto our own ends. We find ourslves now embroiled in supporting Assad's regime, indirectly or otherwise, a regime which has killed, so far, an esitimated 200,00 people, vastly more than Daesh. We halped create organisations like al-Qaeda (to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan) and Daesh (by invading Iraq, based on a carpet of lies and later claiming that it was Ok because we'd removed a dcictator whom we'd previously supported), and we continue to support Daesh by failing to put pressure on the Saudis. Meanwhile, we seem remarkably unconcerned with the actions of other regimes across the world. Mugabe rolls along, and we could do this all day and not run out of regimes we do nothing about.
Hilary Benn is about to visit Israel to show his support for their excesses, taking with him the chair of Labour Friends of Israel. Good timing Hilary.
So, forgive me if I'm less than impressed with my nation's global actions. They stink of corporatism and complete ignorance of what makes people tick. I don't believe that ignorance is accidental.
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Bloody hell, think that was longer than Hillary Benn's speech.
Perhaps we should use gorilla tactics then, we could use our experts in the field of explosives;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciZXalxSus
:seeya:
Perhaps we should use gorilla tactics then, we could use our experts in the field of explosives;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciZXalxSus
:seeya:
Y
YoungScud
Y
YoungScud
So you think it's all about oil, surely not.
Yes, i do.
So we should nuke the Turks?
Um, no, I don't think the US would let us, but let's engage in puerile nonsense instead of rational debate.
The people of this country are not perfect, but I think we go some way to being a multi-cultural society.
I think some of us do, but we need to do more.
Bet you hate fox hunting as well.
Even more puerile. I bet you use words like 'leftie'.
Jewish people form part of our multi-cultural society.
So do Muslims, but I don't see Hilary trotting off to Damascus to support Assad's mistreatment of his people. You do know that Israel claims to be a secular democracy, right? My ire was reserved for Israel, not Jews. Many Jews will assure you the two are not inseperable.
Yes, i do.
So we should nuke the Turks?
Um, no, I don't think the US would let us, but let's engage in puerile nonsense instead of rational debate.
The people of this country are not perfect, but I think we go some way to being a multi-cultural society.
I think some of us do, but we need to do more.
Bet you hate fox hunting as well.
Even more puerile. I bet you use words like 'leftie'.
Jewish people form part of our multi-cultural society.
So do Muslims, but I don't see Hilary trotting off to Damascus to support Assad's mistreatment of his people. You do know that Israel claims to be a secular democracy, right? My ire was reserved for Israel, not Jews. Many Jews will assure you the two are not inseperable.
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YoungScud
Good point Tel.
Being a simple soul, if an entity like dash want to kill all non followers of their brand of ideology and start doing so, I say bomb the *astards - when they are all dead we can then negotiate about peace.
Don't think anyone's gonna trot off to Damascus at the mo. Think you need to start another debate about Israel.
G
Guest77
A lot of what you say makes sence, however one thing, remember if it were not for us in the 1940s we would all be speaking German, we need to stand up to lunatics, ISIS are lunatics, so lets get in there and kick the shi$e out of them in their back door.
true. russia's contribution was only exceeded by that of john wayne. :30:
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Guest77
I am not Jeremy fan Tel, I am one of the 49.8% of the Labour party members who voted against him, I am seriously concidering voting for an independant candidate in the next general election should Jeremy still be at the helm in our party.
G
Guest77
I disagree, even without the russians we would have won through in the end, the Nukes dropped on Japan would have been dropped on Germany first.
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