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alarm man
Maybe they have been reading the forum..:bobby:
Very overdue! Is anyone here in a position to submit evidence? I may write a letter, saying how it frustrates me that I'm qualified install and to test and inspect large commercial and industrial installations, but I'm unable to wire a house without paying through the nose to notify. Even then, the council will note send anyone round because of my electrical qualifications.
Pi
Pi
F
fuzzydunlop
Anyone can from the link
Written evidence addressing any or all of these issues, in accordance with the guidelines set out below, are invited by 5pm on Wednesday, 25 January 2012.
Each submission should:
- be no more than 4,000 words in length;
- begin with a short summary in bullet point form;
- be in Word format with as little use of colour or logos as possible; and
- be accompanied by a covering letter or email containing the name and contact details of the individual or organisation submitting evidence.
Can this be made a sticky in the main forum then others can send in their rants/4000 word essays on the state of the industry
G
Guest123
Absolutely.
F
fuzzydunlop
cheers, actually knowing the nature of forums (and there are a lot of stickies) move it to the general for a week so pople can comment, then sticky it and maybe a submission can be are from the forum as a whole
The submission would need to be from a reputable, known, recognisable, acknowledgeable, and reference-able source, for it to be recognised to be honest!
It will have to come from a known engineering institute, registered business organisation (such as NIC, ECA NAPIT etc., etc.) or a registered engineering professional in my experience for it to be recognised.
It will have to come from a known engineering institute, registered business organisation (such as NIC, ECA NAPIT etc., etc.) or a registered engineering professional in my experience for it to be recognised.
F
fuzzydunlop
No it doesn't. But, in any event most members on here would be recognisable be it from a scheme membership to a JIB recognised electrician.
It's Parliament, they do (despite not remembering) work for us
If what you say is true Paul, then no wonder that nothing will change. I beleive that not many people qualified to the standards you mention have the in depth knowledge of the domestic industry to be able to make effective decisions. Most of the evidence presented will be presented by profitable organisations with vested interests. If things change for the better, then I'm all for it, but I'm not holding my breath.
G
Guest123
I've created another thread with an FW link to this one to gain a bit more coverage as I feel it's an important topic.
fuzzy,
I agree with you mate, but I doubt that it will be given ANY recognition if it is not as I describe!
Think about it, they only EVER recognise those they want to or are "forced" to!!!
johnny,
Again you are correct, but I suspect my comments are still valid!
Again you are correct, but I suspect my comments are still valid!
F
fuzzydunlop
It's not correct, anyone can submit but, you're correct that big businesses will make sure that their interests are seen over everyone else's. i.e NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT will try to keep the bar low to keep membership numbers/income high; City and Guilds will take the middle ground as they don't want to be seen churning out mickey mouse courses and the colleges will reap the benefits irrespective of the outcome (more stringent entry = higher course fees, lower entry more students etc)
If you feel really strongly you can also write to your MP and ask that he submits on your behalf as his constituent WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free
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F
fuzzydunlop
So come one people what are your gripes we have enough moaning on here.
Mine (and i'm not even fully qualified) is the ridiculously low method of entry to become a DI (not a dig and DI's but that is what they have been labelled as).
If I wanted i could become a DI tomorrow (have 2330 lvl 2/3, 17th and will be starting my NVQ3 workbook in the New Year) But realistically I know I'd be using the general public as a guinea pig and have more self respect than that. Unfortunately the way the systems operates now it doesn't work like that and you have people who are frankly dangerous working in the industry (as well as good ones)
On the other hand you have someone that is a JIB registered electrician (and yes I know even they have bad ones) cannot do works that someone whose sat down and done a 2hr exam with the answers in a book which is sitting in front of him (17th) can do, with ut joining to a scheme to prove "competency"
My answer is a license scheme to be brought into effect with a unified electrical contractors card with a one year probationary period for all. Then you're filtered out as to your qualifications
I'd be interested to see what the insurance industry think of the current position as in effect not only can "5 day wonders" work in domestic, they could also go and work in a commercial environment (again not a dig)
Mine (and i'm not even fully qualified) is the ridiculously low method of entry to become a DI (not a dig and DI's but that is what they have been labelled as).
If I wanted i could become a DI tomorrow (have 2330 lvl 2/3, 17th and will be starting my NVQ3 workbook in the New Year) But realistically I know I'd be using the general public as a guinea pig and have more self respect than that. Unfortunately the way the systems operates now it doesn't work like that and you have people who are frankly dangerous working in the industry (as well as good ones)
On the other hand you have someone that is a JIB registered electrician (and yes I know even they have bad ones) cannot do works that someone whose sat down and done a 2hr exam with the answers in a book which is sitting in front of him (17th) can do, with ut joining to a scheme to prove "competency"
My answer is a license scheme to be brought into effect with a unified electrical contractors card with a one year probationary period for all. Then you're filtered out as to your qualifications
I'd be interested to see what the insurance industry think of the current position as in effect not only can "5 day wonders" work in domestic, they could also go and work in a commercial environment (again not a dig)
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G
Guest123
Surely this has to be the main & biggest gripe of all.
By passing an exam on how to look for keywords in a book, someone with no prior experience is deemed competent to install electrical systems in a domestic situation.
Part P needs addressing at source, the providers & the members. The cynic in me however, thinks that very little will change as it's become too much of a cash cow for those involved.
S
Spudnik
What would you all suggest as a realistic minimum requirement for scheme membership?
We all come here moaning about it, but no one has really come up with any attempt at a sensible solution.
Now, we know that just studying a book for a few days does not give any experience in the field whatsoever, but with no apprenticeships available anymore, and employers requiring experienced electricians, what else would you suggest?
Input welcome, without the use of handbags.
We all come here moaning about it, but no one has really come up with any attempt at a sensible solution.
Now, we know that just studying a book for a few days does not give any experience in the field whatsoever, but with no apprenticeships available anymore, and employers requiring experienced electricians, what else would you suggest?
Input welcome, without the use of handbags.
T
trev
How about 7671 + Domestic Installers Cert (so at least they will have done a little wiring, albeit in a classroom) + 2391 (So they would have some idea about how complex the trade can be)
Maybe I'm being over optimistic given the success rate of 2391 but it would be better than the current situation where anyone who can read could conceivably be out working a week after an open book exam
Maybe I'm being over optimistic given the success rate of 2391 but it would be better than the current situation where anyone who can read could conceivably be out working a week after an open book exam
a requirement to make apprenticeships available. When apprentice enrolls on a course, part of the cost shopuld be for enrolling them in work placements. this would equally apply to people self funding at whatever age. Why shouldnt a loan system similar to uni loans, not be available to apprentices? to allow them to learn a craft, and sustain themeslves along the way.
the comapniesget free labour, and in return, they have to have to train the apprentices properly. There should be a minimum spark-apprentice ratio, to ensure the system is not abused.
the employers should not have to pay them for the first 2 years (an apprentice loan sustains them), and as long as they have passed the first 2, then years 3 and 4 are paid.
yopu must pass moduls to be allowed to carry on, and if you fail then itcosts you in the form of repaying the apprentice loan.
the comapniesget free labour, and in return, they have to have to train the apprentices properly. There should be a minimum spark-apprentice ratio, to ensure the system is not abused.
the employers should not have to pay them for the first 2 years (an apprentice loan sustains them), and as long as they have passed the first 2, then years 3 and 4 are paid.
yopu must pass moduls to be allowed to carry on, and if you fail then itcosts you in the form of repaying the apprentice loan.
T
trev
The thing is John the government are not going to spend money on building trades. That has been proven by every government that have been in office since I left school. It might be different if we were training to become doctors or lawyers but trades, no chance.
There's a massive shortage of housing in this country so to get the economy going they could build social housing instead of giving money they have just printed to banks thus storing up problems for our children but they need to keep their mates in the city sweet.
There's a massive shortage of housing in this country so to get the economy going they could build social housing instead of giving money they have just printed to banks thus storing up problems for our children but they need to keep their mates in the city sweet.
F
fuzzydunlop
As a minimum requirement for scheme membership
17th but not in its present form, before I started training I was under the impression the 17th Edition "monicker" actually meant something. It doesn't, it means you can find an answer in a book, albeit a big and complicated one but still the answer is there, it doesn't give you a technical understanding of the why + plus you only need to get 60% of the questions right
A proper C&G/EAL course that last longer than 5 days
2392
And only allowed to work in domestic, if they want to do any commercial work 2391 as a requirement
17th but not in its present form, before I started training I was under the impression the 17th Edition "monicker" actually meant something. It doesn't, it means you can find an answer in a book, albeit a big and complicated one but still the answer is there, it doesn't give you a technical understanding of the why + plus you only need to get 60% of the questions right
A proper C&G/EAL course that last longer than 5 days
2392
And only allowed to work in domestic, if they want to do any commercial work 2391 as a requirement
I think trying to get bogged down in very industry specific jargon is unhelpful. I will be writing, as a contractor-business owner, and I will be talking to my local MP about it too, as he and I had a very helpful conversation over my concerns over the risk of monopolies occuring with the Smart Meter / house safety inspection idea proposed by the ESC.
Break the whole thing down into pieces -
1) Part P isn't working because it:
a) disadvantages experienced qualified electricians in conducting quality business
b) encourages a black market of cheap unskilled (and therefore dangerous) labour to undercut costs to the consumer because of the increased costs to the legitimate contractor
c) is insufficiently policed to be a deterrent to consumers to conduct their own work meant to be controlled
d) resellers are not required to place any controls to deter (c) above.
2) Part P would be made better by:
a) increased requirements for both academic and skills based qualifications for contractors, which could be encouraged greatly by a return to the apprenticeship system
b) increased public awareness of the requirements of Part P
c) the introduction of ONE sole registration scheme to aid clarity for consumers
d) increased policing through fines and other deterrents for unqualified contrators providing services.
There you go, expand as you wish. That's probably about a hundred odd words, so plenty of scope to pad it out.
Break the whole thing down into pieces -
1) Part P isn't working because it:
a) disadvantages experienced qualified electricians in conducting quality business
b) encourages a black market of cheap unskilled (and therefore dangerous) labour to undercut costs to the consumer because of the increased costs to the legitimate contractor
c) is insufficiently policed to be a deterrent to consumers to conduct their own work meant to be controlled
d) resellers are not required to place any controls to deter (c) above.
2) Part P would be made better by:
a) increased requirements for both academic and skills based qualifications for contractors, which could be encouraged greatly by a return to the apprenticeship system
b) increased public awareness of the requirements of Part P
c) the introduction of ONE sole registration scheme to aid clarity for consumers
d) increased policing through fines and other deterrents for unqualified contrators providing services.
There you go, expand as you wish. That's probably about a hundred odd words, so plenty of scope to pad it out.
It's a question I have been thinking of asking for a while
What is a "Qualified electrician" these days and what is the minimum qualification to achieve that status
You see so many items for sale that must be installed by a qualified electrician or items that should be installed by a competant person and it begs the question what is qualified or competant. None of these items state must be installed by a registered Part P installer or is it that they understand that Part P does not necessarily test the status of those joining these schemes
With some of the questions asked on this forum is internet and forum access required to be qualified
The sham that is Part P has done nothing to improve safety IMHO having seen a new build installation recently it fell short in a number of areas and this was done by an NICEIC DI.
Until we get rid of the short course qualification and bring back proper training and experience to gain the qualification of electrician then this industry will continue to go to the dogs not helped by Part P
What is a "Qualified electrician" these days and what is the minimum qualification to achieve that status
You see so many items for sale that must be installed by a qualified electrician or items that should be installed by a competant person and it begs the question what is qualified or competant. None of these items state must be installed by a registered Part P installer or is it that they understand that Part P does not necessarily test the status of those joining these schemes
With some of the questions asked on this forum is internet and forum access required to be qualified
The sham that is Part P has done nothing to improve safety IMHO having seen a new build installation recently it fell short in a number of areas and this was done by an NICEIC DI.
Until we get rid of the short course qualification and bring back proper training and experience to gain the qualification of electrician then this industry will continue to go to the dogs not helped by Part P
It seems it's the educational providers that are setting the qualification levels required for the industry (along with a lot of unnecessary drag along stuff like QCF, admittedly in consultation with the SSC).
Unfortunately, those providers are setting a continually moving bar (for their own financial reasons), hands up all who have an NVQ3? It's almost as if it warrants a, nationally (European given the harmonisation thrust?) recognised, educational attainment level of "Electrician" (maybe that should still be sitting/passing the AM2 as originally intended?) that would then stay with you, once attained (a bit like a degree qualification does).
Then you'd only have to keep up with wiring and building regs (and possibly ongoing related quals eg 2391). As it stands you need to keep an equivalent load of pieces of paper, depending on when you did your education.
What do you then do about folk who have no formal qualifications (grandfather rights) but have been doing the job for years, let time take care of it? IE do nothing but require all new folk to be qualified.
Who should then govern (choosing the word carefully, IE not a private (profit making) company) this? Who should police (with teeth) the industry and work done?
Unfortunately, those providers are setting a continually moving bar (for their own financial reasons), hands up all who have an NVQ3? It's almost as if it warrants a, nationally (European given the harmonisation thrust?) recognised, educational attainment level of "Electrician" (maybe that should still be sitting/passing the AM2 as originally intended?) that would then stay with you, once attained (a bit like a degree qualification does).
Then you'd only have to keep up with wiring and building regs (and possibly ongoing related quals eg 2391). As it stands you need to keep an equivalent load of pieces of paper, depending on when you did your education.
What do you then do about folk who have no formal qualifications (grandfather rights) but have been doing the job for years, let time take care of it? IE do nothing but require all new folk to be qualified.
Who should then govern (choosing the word carefully, IE not a private (profit making) company) this? Who should police (with teeth) the industry and work done?
Z
Zeno
Re: Parliamentary Enquiry
The core problem is that the Schemes, Training industry, Awarding bodies and Accreditation industry all live off OUR TRADE.
When they have meetings to discuss Policy, Competence levels, Qualifications etc. they have their own financial interests as priority number one. This has been displayed over and over again during the corrupt Part P era. On the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] December 2011, they voted to keep churning out 5DW’s until April 2013, this was supposed to have stopped on the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] January, 2012, another commercial scam.
Why should the Schemes represent Our Trade, especially when even DCLG have stated that they do not know if what they are told is true!
There should be just one brand name, Electric XXXX that the public could recognise, with multiple organisations providing services, to keep competition and fees down. None of them could be trusted to run a single organisation Monopoly, but they all fight to become that single Monopoly.
There should a single definition of Qualified Electrician which should apply to the Individual not the Enterprise as in the dangerous QS system. The Schemes should be banned from those discussions because have shown that they cannot be trusted, neither do they have the will to do it.
When I speak to MP’s the most interesting thing is, like the Public they cannot believe the low standards set, the commercial scams that go on, and disbelief that DCLG allows them.
The core problem is that the Schemes, Training industry, Awarding bodies and Accreditation industry all live off OUR TRADE.
When they have meetings to discuss Policy, Competence levels, Qualifications etc. they have their own financial interests as priority number one. This has been displayed over and over again during the corrupt Part P era. On the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] December 2011, they voted to keep churning out 5DW’s until April 2013, this was supposed to have stopped on the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] January, 2012, another commercial scam.
Why should the Schemes represent Our Trade, especially when even DCLG have stated that they do not know if what they are told is true!
There should be just one brand name, Electric XXXX that the public could recognise, with multiple organisations providing services, to keep competition and fees down. None of them could be trusted to run a single organisation Monopoly, but they all fight to become that single Monopoly.
There should a single definition of Qualified Electrician which should apply to the Individual not the Enterprise as in the dangerous QS system. The Schemes should be banned from those discussions because have shown that they cannot be trusted, neither do they have the will to do it.
When I speak to MP’s the most interesting thing is, like the Public they cannot believe the low standards set, the commercial scams that go on, and disbelief that DCLG allows them.
S
sparky1502
having spent the last 3 years in the educational folly i think the college and learning providers need to put and end to the idea of all pupils entering will pass the course no matter what. there needs to be a bench mark and if you don't meet the requirements you need to study harder or quit. if nothing else this will help employers have faith in the college system as frankly the education we receive is this country is poor.
It's not PC to tell people they have failed or don't meet the standard required, thats why everything is so screwed up in this country
P
pushrod
Communities and Local Government Committee are releasing their recommendations for this on friday.
Hope people haven't been holding their breath waiting for change!
Think that neicic, elecsa and napit have been buying them lunch.
Hope people haven't been holding their breath waiting for change!
Think that neicic, elecsa and napit have been buying them lunch.
Z
Zeno
Yeah, with Our Money, don't forget Unite Union, short course providors, the IET book club etc.....
The intersting thing is, that their findings are only going to be published on the original remit, not the fuller facts of "The Industy" scams, it not over yet.
Here it is,the report by the select committeee
House of Commons - Building Regulations applying to electrical and gas installation and repairs in dwellings - Communities and Local Government Committee
The conclusion is, carry on and do better,schemes to tell public part p exists,"oh yea and pigs will fly"
Free the kitchen fitters to do what they like,reduce areas to be notified,"well they mutilate our trade already"
Make qualified non registered sparks have their work inspected by a 5 DW "The industrial and commercial boys are to be treated with contempt once again"
Finally,ignore all the problems caused by cowboy non registered and Pete in the pubs and the diy efforts, because the public will now get to know about them and get someone registered,"are these people for real"
What a fudge,what an ignorant lot.its no wonder they mess up the rest of the running of the country
House of Commons - Building Regulations applying to electrical and gas installation and repairs in dwellings - Communities and Local Government Committee
The conclusion is, carry on and do better,schemes to tell public part p exists,"oh yea and pigs will fly"
Free the kitchen fitters to do what they like,reduce areas to be notified,"well they mutilate our trade already"
Make qualified non registered sparks have their work inspected by a 5 DW "The industrial and commercial boys are to be treated with contempt once again"
Finally,ignore all the problems caused by cowboy non registered and Pete in the pubs and the diy efforts, because the public will now get to know about them and get someone registered,"are these people for real"
What a fudge,what an ignorant lot.its no wonder they mess up the rest of the running of the country
T
trev
What a complete load of nonesense, I lost interest after the bit where they all patted each other on the back for raising standards. I think I'll log off for a bit and have a swearing fit, at least my wife can't ban me
P
pushrod
Not sure i understand the hierarchy involved here - this DCLG is a cross commons committee that makes recommendations to the government... yes? Or is this the final decision and basically it will just be rubber stamped by the government?
At one point in part 3 (33 and 34?) they talk about "requiring the government" are they the top dogs or not?
At one point in part 3 (33 and 34?) they talk about "requiring the government" are they the top dogs or not?
Z
Zeno
Well Pushrod, the cross party DCLG Commons select committee, has made recommendations to DCLG Buildings Division Minister Andrew Stunell MP.
The Minister has a few weeks to reply to the Select Committee, which will be published, the Select Committee can also call ANYONE back to answer additional questions at any point, so it is not over yet, they are still receiving information.
“The Minister, Mr Stunell, told us that the Government believes that standards are being met: “The schemes set themselves standards internally. They do check, they are required to check and there is an overlapping check carried out by the supervisory body”.
The phrase used above, is key to the way the Scams operate, they write their owns rules and regulations, then they are accredited by UKAS as being compliant with those rules. The problem is that they write their own Industry Scams, which are very very profitable.
Conflict of Interest.
40. We take some comfort from what the Minister said but we are not reassured that internal checks will uncover serious conflicts of interests.
“Concern has been raised about the potential conflict of interest that exists in the three approval authorities of the Competent Person Scheme under Part P.
So would that be ECA/ELECSA, NAPIT and ESC/NICEIC then?
“These Scheme operators obtain their finance from the very same companies whose work they judge and they are in competition with each other.
We consider that the Government needs to put stronger controls in place over the Competent Person Scheme, to show that the Scheme is serving the best interests of the safety of the public.”
“The current arrangements need greater independent supervision to offset the pressures to compromise safety standards and actively to seek out conflicts of interest and distortions of the market.”
So conflicts of interest would be?
1. Allowing five day wonders.
2. Deeming people Competent that are NOT Competent under the EAWR.
3. Misleading the Public that the person on the Doorstep is a Competent Person, when they are really a Competent Enterprise with just one Competent Person.
4. Schemes are casual about assessment to make money, while others over assess to make money.
5. The Schemes allow people thrown out of one Scheme to just join another
6. The Schemes have refused to advertise Part P to the Public, because they want to use Electricians money to advertise themselves. Do Electricians trust them to use our money to do this, NO.
Plus many many more.
So the Inquiry has stated in their own parliamentary language that they are NOT happy with the way that the Schemes operate, and that they are not serving the best interests of the Public when it comes to Safety.
There are a number of people on this forum that have been saying that the Schemes have been putting Profit before the Safety of the public for a number of years. So it is good to see this Independent inquiry confirm the facts as Electricians see them.
Sorry for long post, but hope it explains how it works!
The Minister has a few weeks to reply to the Select Committee, which will be published, the Select Committee can also call ANYONE back to answer additional questions at any point, so it is not over yet, they are still receiving information.
“The Minister, Mr Stunell, told us that the Government believes that standards are being met: “The schemes set themselves standards internally. They do check, they are required to check and there is an overlapping check carried out by the supervisory body”.
The phrase used above, is key to the way the Scams operate, they write their owns rules and regulations, then they are accredited by UKAS as being compliant with those rules. The problem is that they write their own Industry Scams, which are very very profitable.
Conflict of Interest.
40. We take some comfort from what the Minister said but we are not reassured that internal checks will uncover serious conflicts of interests.
“Concern has been raised about the potential conflict of interest that exists in the three approval authorities of the Competent Person Scheme under Part P.
So would that be ECA/ELECSA, NAPIT and ESC/NICEIC then?
“These Scheme operators obtain their finance from the very same companies whose work they judge and they are in competition with each other.
We consider that the Government needs to put stronger controls in place over the Competent Person Scheme, to show that the Scheme is serving the best interests of the safety of the public.”
“The current arrangements need greater independent supervision to offset the pressures to compromise safety standards and actively to seek out conflicts of interest and distortions of the market.”
So conflicts of interest would be?
1. Allowing five day wonders.
2. Deeming people Competent that are NOT Competent under the EAWR.
3. Misleading the Public that the person on the Doorstep is a Competent Person, when they are really a Competent Enterprise with just one Competent Person.
4. Schemes are casual about assessment to make money, while others over assess to make money.
5. The Schemes allow people thrown out of one Scheme to just join another
6. The Schemes have refused to advertise Part P to the Public, because they want to use Electricians money to advertise themselves. Do Electricians trust them to use our money to do this, NO.
Plus many many more.
So the Inquiry has stated in their own parliamentary language that they are NOT happy with the way that the Schemes operate, and that they are not serving the best interests of the Public when it comes to Safety.
There are a number of people on this forum that have been saying that the Schemes have been putting Profit before the Safety of the public for a number of years. So it is good to see this Independent inquiry confirm the facts as Electricians see them.
Sorry for long post, but hope it explains how it works!
P
pushrod
Thanks for the reply Zeno.
What irritates me is that they seem to be putting forward that the only people who should be doing any electrics are people who are under the part P umbrella of the schemes, when often it maybe just one person in the company who is part P. I consider myself competent as i am well qualified and experienced and sensible enough to only take on work that i am familiar with. However i am not in a situation where i could work full time thus making joining a scheme viable. To my mind they are presenting a closed shop. An analogy might be that you have to be a member of the RAC or AA to drive a car. I might choose to join them as it might be advantageous to me to join, but equally if i only drive a 100 miles a year and always stay close to home why should i be forced to join them to occasionally drive. The 2 years i spent full time at college getting distinctions in every part of the 2330, and the current wiring regs exam and the 2391 exams are the evidence of my competence, not 2 carefully selected jobs that i may not have even done myself. I am much more in favour of some sort of licence scheme listing your qualifications. If people with sufficient volume of work want to join a scheme that helps with notification that should be up to them.
Think i feel another letter coming on :32:
What irritates me is that they seem to be putting forward that the only people who should be doing any electrics are people who are under the part P umbrella of the schemes, when often it maybe just one person in the company who is part P. I consider myself competent as i am well qualified and experienced and sensible enough to only take on work that i am familiar with. However i am not in a situation where i could work full time thus making joining a scheme viable. To my mind they are presenting a closed shop. An analogy might be that you have to be a member of the RAC or AA to drive a car. I might choose to join them as it might be advantageous to me to join, but equally if i only drive a 100 miles a year and always stay close to home why should i be forced to join them to occasionally drive. The 2 years i spent full time at college getting distinctions in every part of the 2330, and the current wiring regs exam and the 2391 exams are the evidence of my competence, not 2 carefully selected jobs that i may not have even done myself. I am much more in favour of some sort of licence scheme listing your qualifications. If people with sufficient volume of work want to join a scheme that helps with notification that should be up to them.
Think i feel another letter coming on :32:
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G
Guest111
But why do they bother anyway?I mean look at the things you see done wrong on these makeover shows,by Billy bodger and his mates (diy sos) then he goes on about building control never shows them pulling him up and fixing his mistakes does it!moneymaking scam
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