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Octopus

From the BBC

"New "English votes for English laws" rules have been implemented in the House of Commons for the first time.Conservative MPs cheered as English and Welsh members prepared to give their consent to parts of the Housing and Planning Bill that only apply to their constituencies.

Housing Minister Brandon Lewis said he was "very proud" to be implementing the reforms.


But the SNP said the changes were "driving Scotland out of the door".

I really don't get the SNP.

Tony Blair only got the initial tuition charges through for English and Welsh students with the votes of the Scottish Labour MP's - and with this bill anyone from the EU can study in Scotland for free EXCEPT the English and Welsh.


And the SNP have gone VERY quiet about independence since the crash in the oil price!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35295404
 
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When I saw Nicola Sturgeon on the tv leading up to the independence vote , the anger and bitterness was terrible , in itself it would put many of from going to Scotland , but I have been there many times in the past and I have met nice people , still its like theres a thorn in the side all the time that wants to hinder any relations with England , the oil price is putting many out of work too and the revenues will plummet which they totally rely on , I reckon theres a lot of Scottish people that would want to leave the EU if we vote out , its not so easy for SNP to say they would go their own way...
 
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From the BBC

"New "English votes for English laws" rules have been implemented in the House of Commons for the first time.Conservative MPs cheered as English and Welsh members prepared to give their consent to parts of the Housing and Planning Bill that only apply to their constituencies.

Housing Minister Brandon Lewis said he was "very proud" to be implementing the reforms.


But the SNP said the changes were "driving Scotland out of the door".

I really don't get the SNP.

Tony Blair only got the initial tuition charges through for English and Welsh students with the votes of the Scottish Labour MP's - and with this bill anyone from the EU can study in Scotland for free EXCEPT the English and Welsh.


And the SNP have gone VERY quiet about independence since the crash in the oil price!

'English votes' rules used for first time in House of Commons - BBC News


Really? Not a big reader then? I suppose you only get the news you want to hear in Woking.

EVEL, whether you like it or not, creates a constitutional nightmare. Consider what the message is. We're all better together, we're a united UK, but we're only going to let you vote on the things we say you can. It's a House of Commons with a two-tier membership. As a matter of fact, up until this boloney started up, SNP MPs, unlike Labour and the rest, voluntarily abstained from voting on English only matters, so why not criticise everyone else?

As for whining about English students having to pay for tuition in Scotland, do Scottish students in England get a free service? If not, what's your problem? Half the time, we can't even get you to accept our banknotes. Scotland simply follows EU law, England doesn't.
 
Speaking as someone who loves Scotland & who lives at the other end of the British mainland, personally, I say if the Scots want to go - let 'em. They contribute nothing to the UK economy (despite their much vaunted North Sea revenue) & are actually a drain... -ve £1400 per capita.

Other than that, I agree with the OP. IMO The SNP are political opportunists who just want to be the ruling elite & the only way they can do that is to get their small country independently under their control.

And, BTW I am a big supporter of a United Kingom - but to have one in the 21st century & beyond we are likely going to have to face a few home truths...

Our Parliamentary System is creaking and failing
Our governments of whatever type are elected by a minority of the population
Without the EU we have almost no human rights or constitutional rights protection at an individual level - we don't even enjoy true freedom of speech or a right to silence any longer
Our traditional magna carta based freedoms have been eroded to to point where they are non existent
We are surveilled and tracked in a way that George Orwell would have found beyond belief (and if you don't understand the reference, then that is part of the problem)

But hey, there is nothing I can personally do about any of it. I get one vote every 5 years and I use it. Other than that I have just stopped bothering to get emotionally or intellectually engaged in it any more. It's pointless.
 
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When I saw Nicola Sturgeon on the tv leading up to the independence vote ,the anger and bitterness was terrible , in itself it would put many of from going to Scotland , but I have been there many times in the past and I have met nice people , still its like theres a thorn in the side all the time that wants to hinder any relations with England , the oil price is putting many out of work too and the revenues will plummet which they totally rely on , I reckon theres a lot of Scottish people that would want to leave the EU if we vote out , its not so easy for SNP to say they would go their own way...

It's always about you isn't it? When will it get through that independence isn't about not being English, because we're not, but about being Scottish and being in charge of one's own destiny? I suppose never. As for oil revenues, here's the funny thing. You clearly never really listened to the arguments put forward by the pro-independence, you'd know that it was not they who constantly referred to oil revenues. The Scottish government was very careful, in fact, to avoid including any oil revenues at all, in its GDP figures. Scotland isn't dependent at all on oil revenues - it never sees any, because they disappear South into a black hole. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant.
 
Speaking as someone who loves Scotland & who lives at the other end of the British mainland, personally, I say if the Scots want to go - let 'em. They contribute nothing to the UK economy (despite their much vaunted North Sea revenue) & are actually a drain... -ve £1400 per capita.

Other than that, I agree with the OP. IMO The SNP are political opportunists who just want to be the ruling elite & the only way they can do that is to get their small country independently under their control.

Again, simply arrant nonsense. No oil revenues accrue to Scotland. You claim to love Scotland, yet you're happy to insult the intelligence of its electorate, who are vastly more politically engaged than any other part of the UK. You have a strange way of shwoing that love.
 
Again, simply arrant nonsense. No oil revenues accrue to Scotland. You claim to love Scotland, yet you're happy to insult the intelligence of its electorate, who are vastly more politically engaged than any other part of the UK. You have a strange way of shwoing that love.

Interesting how you can twist the content of my post to support your own narrow position. When I said I love Scotland I was accurately referring to the beautiful country and most of the "non city" folk who I have met. As far as insulting the intelligence of any electorate goes, do you really think that the Scottish electorate vote philosophically?!?! They vote for the party who will give them the biggest financial handouts - that's why they have voted historically for the Labour Party in the past and now vote for the SNP.

Its is also why the same electorate still voted to remain part of the U.K. - because, unlike the typical SNP member or activist, they are not interested in the philosophy, but the practicalities of life.
 
As far as insulting the intelligence of any electorate goes, do you really think that the Scottish electorate vote philosophically?!?! They vote for the party who will give them the biggest financial handouts - that's why they have voted historically for the Labour Party in the past and now vote for the SNP.


Your comment is just utter nonsense, there is no shred of factual content within it - you've even fallen into that populist media trap by repeating the Scotland is a drain fable.

But, as has been previously said, let's not spoil a good rant with facts.

What's the weather like all the way down there in Devon today ?
 
Interesting how you can twist the content of my post to support your own narrow position. When I said I love Scotland I was accurately referring to the beautiful country and most of the "non city" folk who I have met. As far as insulting the intelligence of any electorate goes, do you really think that the Scottish electorate vote philosophically?!?! They vote for the party who will give them the biggest financial handouts - that's why they have voted historically for the Labour Party in the past and now vote for the SNP.

Its is also why the same electorate still voted to remain part of the U.K. - because, unlike the typical SNP member or activist, they are not interested in the philosophy, but the practicalities of life.



So, let me see if I've got this right. It's only the city dwellers who are stupid. Those smart country types have it right. Let's examine that for a moment.

There are three mainstream party MPs representing Scottish constituencies at Westminster at the moment. David Mundell, the only Tory, representing a huntin', fishin' and shootin' constituency with a shedlaod of wealthy landowners, very few of them with traditional ties to the area. Ian Murray, Labour, pretty much a Red Tory, a member of Progress. Fell into the role of Shadow Scottish Secretary because...well, because there's nobody else. Represents the rather affluent Edinburgh South. You know, Edinburgh, Scotland's second largest city. And then there's the Great Liar, Alistair Carmichael, found by a panel of eminent judges to have basically leaked a false memo about a meeting between Nicola Sturgeon and the French Ambassador, then simply lied, (he even admitted in court that he did this to protect his image in the upcoming elections) and yet still managed to evade conviction on a technicality. Expect his elevation to the Lords after the next election, because he's not getting reelected any time soon.

So, for the rest of those lovely 'non city' folk you hold so dear, they appear to havwe let you down badly and voted SNP. Nice try. If you want to discuss Scottish politics, I'd advise you to stop getting your opinions from the MSM, because frankly, so far, your posts have been nothing short of nonsensical.
 
What is still amazing that the Yes campaign still think it is right and it clearly isn't.

My wife is Scottish and all her family still live in Scotland and I'm from Scottish grandparents and have family there.

The yes vote never won simply because it's "white paper" outlinging independence was full of holes they could not answer

(i) EU membership, and the real possibility that they would not be readmitted
(ii) The pound and the dread of having to either create a worthless currency if they could not get the Euro
(iii) Treaties that was negotiated under the UK would not be valid and the fall out of this. UN membership, NATO etc
(iv) A year before the referendum the Scottich Government's own figures showed a deficit of billions from tax revenue
(v) Setting up their own benefits system and other agencies would cost billions.
(vi) Coperation between armed forces, police, ambulance etc would have cost as well
(vii) Bail of of the RBS and other Scottish banks was mainly funded by the UK tax payer. Would the Scottish only Tax payer have done this, highly unlikely

The bottom line is that though it is a wonderful dream the facts are the Union is better for Scotland. I agree that Scotland would most likely be able to go it alone to some sort of a degree, but at what cost.
 
What is still amazing that the Yes campaign still think it is right and it clearly isn't.

My wife is Scottish and all her family still live in Scotland and I'm from Scottish grandparents and have family there.

The yes vote never won simply because it's "white paper" outlinging independence was full of holes they could not answer

(i) EU membership, and the real possibility that they would not be readmitted
(ii) The pound and the dread of having to either create a worthless currency if they could not get the Euro
(iii) Treaties that was negotiated under the UK would not be valid and the fall out of this. UN membership, NATO etc
(iv) A year before the referendum the Scottich Government's own figures showed a deficit of billions from tax revenue
(v) Setting up their own benefits system and other agencies would cost billions.
(vi) Coperation between armed forces, police, ambulance etc would have cost as well
(vii) Bail of of the RBS and other Scottish banks was mainly funded by the UK tax payer. Would the Scottish only Tax payer have done this, highly unlikely

The bottom line is that though it is a wonderful dream the facts are the Union is better for Scotland. I agree that Scotland would most likely be able to go it alone to some sort of a degree, but at what cost.


Oh I love it when I get something to get my teeth into. Sadly, you've made it disappointingly easy.

(i) Yes, that one was done to death. There was never any realistic prospect that an EU desperate to expand would deny itself access to not only the North Sea oilfields, but some of the richest fishing grounds in Europe.

(ii) The myth abounds that the pound is an English currency. After independence, Scotland could if it so wished simply trrade Sterling on the open market, ad the White paper Clearly said so. Of course, that was if we didn't want to take up any of the several other options.

(iii) See above. Yes, one visit from Putin to Holyrood would have sorted that out. On a more serious note, we've long recognised that the security problems the present Westminster government and its predecessors claim we face are largely of its own making, and it never seems to learn from that. Our neutral stance on oppressive regimes in the Middle East would help ensure that we wouldn't face the same threats. Even if I'm wrong, we always have baggage handlers.

(iv) Um, no they didn't.

(v) In large part, tjhat would take care of itself. The mechanisms are there, and would simply be apportioned.

(vi) Um, we proposed a solution, a Scottish Defence Force, all costed and affordable, commensurate with our needs. As for police and ambulance services, I'm afraid this is where the bottom drops right out of your claims. These services are already evolved and have been for many years. Any required cooperation between services already takes place as a matter of routine.

(vii) I was so glad you left this until last, since it gave me the most pleasure.Leaving aside the fact that niether RBs nor HBOS are really Scottish banking groups (BOS is a part of Lloyds), no need to thank Scotland for bailing out the English banks. We're all in it togther, remember?

The bottom line is that though you like to state your opinions as 'fact', you expose your gaping lack of knowledge of Scottish politics every time you post. My lived-here-all-my-life, been-on-both-sides-of-the-fence, can-read-more-than-the-Telegraph trumps both your Scottish wife, who I'm sure is a perfectly lovely woman (not to mention being a saint) and your putative Scottish roots, because you're obviously several steps removed form being one of Jock Tamson's bairns. This is fun though.
 
Oh I love it when I get something to get my teeth into. Sadly, you've made it disappointingly easy.

(i) Yes, that one was done to death. There was never any realistic prospect that an EU desperate to expand would deny itself access to not only the North Sea oilfields, but some of the richest fishing grounds in Europe Oh dear. Spain actually reported that they would not vote for a scottish entry for fear of Basque region following suit.............even if Scotland got in it would not have been on the same terms as the Uk and the cost would have been..think of a number

(ii) The myth abounds that the pound is an English currency. After independence, Scotland could if it so wished simply trrade Sterling on the open market, ad the White paper Clearly said so. Of course, that was if we didn't want to take up any of the several other options.......Your right it is a British pound and it can be traded by anyone........but only the British can use the British pound........

(iii) See above. Yes, one visit from Putin to Holyrood would have sorted that out. On a more serious note, we've long recognised that the security problems the present Westminster government and its predecessors claim we face are largely of its own making, and it never seems to learn from that. Our neutral stance on oppressive regimes in the Middle East would help ensure that we wouldn't face the same threats. Even if I'm wrong, we always have baggage handler....Hmmm so you think Putin will become your instant ally, good luck with that we see how he deals with friends such as Ukraine. The old Neutral stance worked wonders in 1939 for many a small country

(iv) Um, no they didn't.........hmm yes see the 2013 report from the Scottish analysis financal service

(v) In large part, tjhat would take care of itself. The mechanisms are there, and would simply be apportioned.................That would take care of itself....would that be the pixies taking care of it

(vi) Um, we proposed a solution, a Scottish Defence Force, all costed and affordable, commensurate with our needs. As for police and ambulance services, I'm afraid this is where the bottom drops right out of your claims. These services are already evolved and have been for many years. Any required cooperation between services already takes place as a matter of routine.......Again you have tried to be clever and say I said you couldn't do it where I said you can but at what cost

(vii) I was so glad you left this until last, since it gave me the most pleasure.Leaving aside the fact that niether RBs nor HBOS are really Scottish banking groups (BOS is a part of Lloyds), no need to thank Scotland for bailing out the English banks. We're all in it togther, remember..........................BoS is many things and no bank is totally independent and in 2009 they had stakes in banks all over the world even in the Bank of China. The fact is the BoS was a main investor in Scotland at the time of the crash, and it was UK taxpayers that leant the money to the group that ulimately bailed it out

The bottom line is that though you like to state your opinions as 'fact', you expose your gaping lack of knowledge of Scottish politics every time you post. My lived-here-all-my-life, been-on-both-sides-of-the-fence, can-read-more-than-the-Telegraph trumps both your Scottish wife, who I'm sure is a perfectly lovely woman (not to mention being a saint) and your putative Scottish roots, because you're obviously several steps removed form being one of Jock Tamson's bairns. This is fun though.

Yes it is fun and what is so sad is your condescending attitude. Your like most of the yes campaigners that turned the debate into a war, can't get over the fact that the MAJORITY of Scots saw through your argument which is basically let's live Bannockburn all over again.

The MAJORITY of Scots want the Union, it's not perfect and it can be frustrating but going it alone would cost more than the gains
 
Yes it is fun and what is so sad is your condescending attitude. Your like most of the yes campaigners that turned the debate into a war, can't get over the fact that the MAJORITY of Scots saw through your argument which is basically let's live Bannockburn all over again.

The MAJORITY of Scots want the Union, it's not perfect and it can be frustrating but going it alone would cost more than the gains

And you know this how?
 
And you know this how?

"BoS is many things and no bank is totally independent and in 2009 they had stakes in banks all over the world even in the Bank of China. The fact is the BoS was a main investor in Scotland at the time of the crash, and it was UK taxpayers that leant the money to the group that ulimately bailed it out"

See that highlighted part? That's me as well as you. We bailed each other out, so I don't owe you, nor you me.

"Oh dear. Spain actually reported that they would not vote for a scottish entry for fear of Basque region following suit.............even if Scotland got in it would not have been on the same terms as the Uk and the cost would have been..think of a number"

Spain did no such thing. The Spanish Premier did, and it was well established that that was a back scratching exercise in return for a quid pro quo from Cameron over Catalonia.

"Your right it is a British pound and it can be traded by anyone........but only the British can use the British pound........

Yes, quite correct. Now, define British. The UK isn't Britain.

"Hmmm so you think Putin will become your instant ally, good luck with that we see how he deals with friends such as Ukraine. The old Neutral stance worked wonders in 1939 for many a small country


No need. I didn't say we'd join up with such an appalling bunch of people, we already have our own. The point is, the minute we left the clubhouse, Putin wouuld be round sniffing like a rat up a drainpipe. The UK government knows that, and more importantly, the Americans do too. How long do you think they'd put up with that situation? Why do you think they got involved in the referendum campaign?


"That would take care of itself....would that be the pixies taking care of it

No, that would be adults taking care of it.


"Again you have tried to be clever and say I said you couldn't do it where I said you can but at what cost"


I answered that question. The answer, since you have trouble with reading comprehension is, as far as police and ambulance services are concerned, at no cost, since we already fully fund our own services. Is devolution an alien concept? As far as defence forces are concerned, we already own a proportion of defence assets. The rest of it, we were fully prepared to fund ourselves. In order to negotiate an equable settlement, Westminster would be forced to either settle up or face being saddled with Scotland's share of the National Debt. Anyone who knows anything about politics knows that what was going on over the referendum was nothing more than posturing' which is why even now David Cameron finds himself forced to ngaotiate various issues with Nicola Sturgeon.

So, more fun. Ta. I'm enjoying this, although it's all a bit too easy.
 
Because more people voted NO to independence

And, just so we know you can count, represents what percentage of the Scottish electorate? To help you ot, it's worth bearing in mind the frantic posturing in the last few days, culminating in The Vow. Remember that? With only one newspaper of note attemting anything remotely neutral in its approach, and with the BBC, ITV et al. waving the flag, with a result in which, if 1 in 20 of those who voted had changed their vote, there would have been an entirely different one, are you really claiming a majority of Scots wants to remain in the UK? Keep shouting that, I love it.
 
sadly shakes his head at the wonderment of the arguments..........

As I said UK tax payers.......would the Scottich independent tax payer have afforded bailing out a Scottish crash..........very unlikely

Just google Scottish entry into Europe after Yes vote..........not only spain byt the EU president said that Scotland would not be able to evoke rule 48 and would have to apply again.

Even the UN China made noises about Scotlands admission and like Kosovo could be vetoed

Read it son

?Impossible? for Scotland to join EU, says Barroso - The Scotsman

Spain says it could take independent Scotland years to win EU membership | Politics | The Guardian

Salmond's dream of independent Scotland joining the EU is shattered by threat of Spanish veto | Daily Mail Online

and the list goes on an on

You could trade the British pound but you could not use it as a currency..............so what is your argument.

What would Putin gain from Scoltand................please enlighten

The DWP NHS etc are all centrally run, yes you have departments locally but you would need to set up independant bodies. Again never said you couldn't but at what cost

Again the condescending attitude, it is wonder you can function with that chip on your shoulder. I'm sorry son but how ever much you want to be English you can't

Like the rest of the UK Scotland borrows money to live. Fact. As the 8 th largest economy in the world the UK can afford this because of it's AAA rating. Now with Scotland leaving it was muted that the UK would drop a couple of places but would still retain it's G20 statues and AAA rating

Scotland would be lucky to be in the top 50. Poor credit rating, no power, not in the EU and the cost was not even esitmated as it could not be.

SCOTTISH PEOPLE saw all this and not matter how much Salmond and his cronies played the Nationalist card, it only fooled people like you
 
And, just so we know you can count, represents what percentage of the Scottish electorate? To help you ot, it's worth bearing in mind the frantic posturing in the last few days, culminating in The Vow. Remember that? With only one newspaper of note attemting anything remotely neutral in its approach, and with the BBC, ITV et al. waving the flag, with a result in which, if 1 in 20 of those who voted had changed their vote, there would have been an entirely different one, are you really claiming a majority of Scots wants to remain in the UK? Keep shouting that, I love it.

If only I had won the lottery this week..if only I wasn't an old man I could............if only England had a decent football team

Oh son you are priceless you really are................seems like instead of having a constructive argument we are feeding the troll
 
Malcolm, now we know what we all know, and considering Cameroon's postering the day after the referendum result - do you think the Yes vote would increase given another opportunity to have our say ?
 
Not at all Sean, in fact I think the no vote would increase. With the terrorist situation, oil prices etc I think most Scots would want the status quo ..........for now at least.

SNP have not made many noises towards independence even though they are shouting that Cameron as screwed them. I think they realise that if they would loose again and that would be the end of it.

The world as changed quite a bit from last September and I think talking to friends and relatives in Scotland most people are glad to be in the Union.
 
Well said Malcolm , thats the feeling I get too from the times I visit , I think many now look at Europe and see despair , and feel that as things stand they are better of where they are...
 
sadly shakes his head at the wonderment of the arguments..........

As I said UK tax payers.......would the Scottich independent tax payer have afforded bailing out a Scottish crash..........very unlikely

Just google Scottish entry into Europe after Yes vote..........not only spain byt the EU president said that Scotland would not be able to evoke rule 48 and would have to apply again.

Even the UN China made noises about Scotlands admission and like Kosovo could be vetoed

Read it son

?Impossible? for Scotland to join EU, says Barroso - The Scotsman

Spain says it could take independent Scotland years to win EU membership | Politics | The Guardian

Salmond's dream of independent Scotland joining the EU is shattered by threat of Spanish veto | Daily Mail Online

and the list goes on an on

You could trade the British pound but you could not use it as a currency..............so what is your argument.

What would Putin gain from Scoltand................please enlighten

The DWP NHS etc are all centrally run, yes you have departments locally but you would need to set up independant bodies. Again never said you couldn't but at what cost

Again the condescending attitude, it is wonder you can function with that chip on your shoulder. I'm sorry son but how ever much you want to be English you can't

Like the rest of the UK Scotland borrows money to live. Fact. As the 8 th largest economy in the world the UK can afford this because of it's AAA rating. Now with Scotland leaving it was muted that the UK would drop a couple of places but would still retain it's G20 statues and AAA rating

Scotland would be lucky to be in the top 50. Poor credit rating, no power, not in the EU and the cost was not even esitmated as it could not be.

SCOTTISH PEOPLE saw all this and not matter how much Salmond and his cronies played the Nationalist card, it only fooled people like you



I'm not sure you know how the Un works. China is a permanent member of the UNSC and can use its veto there. It can't veto membership of the UN. Another flight of fancy. By the way, pretending Spain soean't have a horse in this race is whimsical. But what sets the seal, and makes your buddy's reference to 'feeding the troll' so funny is your claim of us wanting to be you. Trust me, if there's anything we don't want to be, it's English. Do tell, though, what waving the Union Jack was if not nationalism?
 
Taking the argument a stage further as RG says...........in a EU in/out referendum I wonder what percentage of Scotland would now vote out with the rest of UK.

I lay money it would be a larger proportion than a year ago
 
I'm not sure you know how the Un works. China is a permanent member of the UNSC and can use its veto there. It can't veto membership of the UN. Another flight of fancy. By the way, pretending Spain soean't have a horse in this race is whimsical. But what sets the seal, and makes your buddy's reference to 'feeding the troll' so funny is your claim of us wanting to be you. Trust me, if there's anything we don't want to be, it's English. Do tell, though, what waving the Union Jack was if not nationalism?

YES IT Can Russia and your mate Putin is blocking Kosovo.......

Any memeber of the security cancel can VETO membership........are you normally this dense

Is that Scottish soean't............what are you trying to say, now take your time grown men are reading this
 
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Yes I do indeed though I'm based in Saudi

So you live in Kent, are based in Saudi - do you really beleive that you are in anyway qualified to be speaking on behalf of the majority Scots view ?

Obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion, I just find yours rather lacking in any form of credibility - that's just my opinion, so don't get the hump over it.
 
No I don't think I'm qualified in speaking for the Scots, they spoke for themselves in 2014 and and I'm afraid people like you and Scud still can not accept it.

Not sure why my opinion lacks credibility where I have actually linked to facts and quoted fact when the only argument you put forward is emotive.

We can twist stats and figures to suit as we like, but the bottom line the Scottish people didn't want devolution and speaking to a myriad of family and friends want it even less now and are thanking god they never got it.

I only ever get the hump as you call it when arguments are taken to a condescending level, and it seems that your going down that road with your cohort.

I'm old enough and ugly enough to argue fact only, and if I'm wrong I will gladly admit it.............unfortunately you and the scud don't adhere to that doctrine which is a shame
 
And here is another fact about why the no vote saved Scotland from ruin

Saudi Arabia?s deficit problem | Global Risk Insights

Saudi is the richest country in the world and last year because of oil prices they posted the above. Now a No vote argument was that North Sea oil would kick start and support the economy to get Scotland on it's feet....................
 
Well that's a lot of words and options and Googled "facts" Malcolm, perhaps we can at least argee to disagree - to be honest I lost interest in your line of thought when you posted this rather odd remark - you let the cat out of the bag with that one old chap.

I'm sorry son but how ever much you want to be English you can't

oops
 
And here is another fact about why the no vote saved Scotland from ruin

Saudi Arabia?s deficit problem | Global Risk Insights

Saudi is the richest country in the world and last year because of oil prices they posted the above. Now a No vote argument was that North Sea oil would kick start and support the economy to get Scotland on it's feet....................

No it wasn't. However, I'll take that one. Saudi's economy is pretty well based on oil. Scotland's isn't and never has been, because as I said earlier, we don't see the revenue. So really, it's a non argument.
 
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It seems to me that the fact that the two contributors so far living in and working in Scotland, and in my case having been involved in Scottish politics for most of my adult life, are deemed by others to be the least credible as extremely telling.
 
Keep up Sean I'm pretty sure with even with your intellect you should have no problems distinguishing fact from SNP fiction.

Sorry if the articles in the 3 different papers re EU membership was a googled fact, or the Saudi deficit was ....................though I don't see a google fact from you disputing it.

By the way I don't need google to read and retain things, though it does help to find relevant TRUE FACTS I give you that.
 
Keep up Sean I'm pretty sure with even with your intellect you should have no problems distinguishing fact from SNP fiction.

I only ever get the hump as you call it when arguments are taken to a condescending level, and it seems that your going down that road with your cohort.

oops, you've done it again - do you realise how arrogant and ignorant such comments come across to folks up here ?

Just out of interest, could you explain the logic that led to you posting the below ?

I'm sorry son but how ever much you want to be English you can't
 
If only I had won the lottery this week..if only I wasn't an old man I could............if only England had a decent football team

Oh son you are priceless you really are................seems like instead of having a constructive argument we are feeding the troll

Couldn't agree more.
 
Wow, just got home and what an interesting "exchange".

The way I look at this is that the SNP keep on about wanting more money (from the rUK) and how they would spend it - they have a very simple way to achieve this:

Since devolution, the Scottish Parliment have had the ability to "vary" income rates by upto 3% - so why doesn't the SNP up the tax rates for Scottish tax payers by 3% and then spend this money?

Not exactly rocket science!
 
Whatever happened to the days of wine and roses us jocks were promised if we stayed?
hmmm that will be a big fat backtracked zero then.
apart from the likes of Michelle mone and Alastair darling who got nice seats in the lords for their "efforts" in persuading gullible pensioners that they wouldn't get a pension if they voted to leave .nice work if you can get it.
looking forward to being a thorn in the political Arse of the U.K. For a while yet anyway.
 
Whatever happened to the days of wine and roses us jocks were promised if we stayed?
hmmm that will be a big fat backtracked zero then.
apart from the likes of Michelle mone and Alastair darling who got nice seats in the lords for their "efforts" in persuading gullible pensioners that they wouldn't get a pension if they voted to leave .nice work if you can get it.
looking forward to being a thorn in the political Arse of the U.K. For a while yet anyway.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think you'll find that most English people couldn't care less if Scotland chooses independence.

Other than believing in the validity of a United Kingdom on purely philosophical grounds, my opinion is that if you Scots wanted to go then you all should have voted to go and then the remaining country could just have gotten on quite nicely without you thank you very much.

I might go so far as to say that I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of the English would now be very glad to see you have independence. I strongly suspect that we are all thoroughly fed up with listening to the almost incessant complaining that we get from north of the border.

In fact, perhaps I could ask my MP to add a question to the EU referendum - only for we English, of course, that asks...

"Are you fed up with subsidising free prescription costs and free university places for Scotland and would you prefer it if they were an independent republic without the £, without the Army, Navy & Airforce and without any financial help from the rest of the U.K. "

My guess is there would be a massive vote of YES!

Oh yes and let me just say that Devonport Dockyard would only be too happy to accept the role as the English and Welsh base for our nuclear submarine fleet. Oh yes, and we have enough spare capacity in Aldershot and other Army towns for any army bases that might still be lingering in Scotland. To tell you the truth, we have a huge airport in Cornwall that would also be thrilled to give a home to any planes and staff in that area as well.

Feel free to keep all the land in your country. Oh yes, and all the debt, unemployment, and health costs. Enjoy paying for everything that you currently enjoy. You'll find your taxes dramatically increase and your service levels dramatically decrease. Let's not mention the financial constraints you will have to endure to stand any chance at all of entering the EU and the Euro.

Yes, on balance I think a resounding "for pity's sake, please just go!!" is what you will hear from most of us English.

If, on the other hand you would like to stay as part of the United Kingdom, then I suspect you will continue to be just as you say, "a thorn in the political Arse of the U.K."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
At the risk of repeating myself, I think you'll find that most English people couldn't care less if Scotland chooses independence.

Other than believing in the validity of a United Kingdom on purely philosophical grounds, my opinion is that if you Scots wanted to go then you all should have voted to go and then the remaining country could just have gotten on quite nicely without you thank you very much.

I might go so far as to say that I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of the English would now be very glad to see you have independence. I strongly suspect that we are all thoroughly fed up with listening to the almost incessant complaining that we get from north of the border.

My guess is there would be a massive vote of YES!
I would tend to disagree. I would agree a lot of people, in the UK, are quite fed up with hearing this debate. I have no factual figures to back this up. But I also think that many people were also relieved that the 'No' campaign won through in the end. I believe we have a lot to promote ourselves as a nation, the UK and splitting up ultimately would make us all, third rate countries.
 

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Don't you just love the SNP......
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