UK Wiring advice for a novice

Tommy10toes

Tommy10toes

-
I discovered a blank face plate in our large food cupboard and thought- ‘if there’s wiring behind this then I could put a little microwave in there’

There is wiring. (See horrible photo) so I will wire in a single plug socket there.

Being a novice I wanted to check the following-
After isolating power I will attach the following to their respective holes in the outlet:

Brown - live
Red- neutral (I’m used to being blue?)
Green yellow- earth

Question- I notice the wires are doubled up together in the terminal blocks. Why is this? Cos they come from different sources? If so why not just bring the power from one source?

I’m assuming I attach each pair of wires as one into their respective holes in the new outlet I will put in.

Thanks in advance for any advice that will potentially save my life :)

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It does appear that there may have been a socket there at some stage from the fact the are 2 pairs of cables. However from the photo it is hard to tell the size of the cable. Have you checked if they are live? You would probably be best having it tested before reconnecting in any case.
 
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First you need to establish what type of circuit this is connected to, is it a lighting circuit, socket circuit or something else?

If it is not a socket circuit then you should not connect a socket to it.

If it is a socket circuit then you need to establish if it is suitable for the addition of another socket. This includes confirming that the correct protection against electric shock is in place.



There aren't any brown conductorsthere, the conductors are red and black. This is the old standard wiring colours used for many, many years. If you cannot correctly identify which is live and which is neutral you should not be attempting this job.
 
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davesparks said:
First you need to establish what type of circuit this is connected to, is it a lighting circuit, socket circuit or something else?

If it is not a socket circuit then you should not connect a socket to it.

If it is a socket circuit then you need to establish if it is suitable for the addition of another socket. This includes confirming that the correct protection against electric shock is in place.



There aren't any brown conductorsthere, the conductors are red and black. This is the old standard wiring colours used for many, many years. If you cannot correctly identify which is live and which is neutral you should not be attempting this jo
Click to expand...
how would one establish what circuit these wires relate to?
davesparks said:
First you need to establish what type of circuit this is connected to, is it a lighting circuit, socket circuit or something else?

If it is not a socket circuit then you should not connect a socket to it.

If it is a socket circuit then you need to establish if it is suitable for the addition of another socket. This includes confirming that the correct protection against electric shock is in place.



There aren't any brown conductorsthere, the conductors are red and black. This is the old standard wiring colours used for many, many years. If you cannot correctly identify which is live and which is neutral you should not be attempting this job.
Click to expand...

Thanks @davesparks- you’ve made me realise that there’s more to this than I initially thought.

Those wires are definitely brown though – the photo just doesn’t show it very well.

To ascertain whether this is relating to a light circuit or a socket circuit - is the simplest way of doing this by seeing which of the switches on the fuse board sends voltage to the wires ?

I won’t be attempting any electrical DIY before I understand what I’m looking at and if I don’t then I’ll call in a professional.
 
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Looking at that picture again there appears to be red tape around one of the black conductors, this suggests that this may be the original position of a lightswitch which has been moved.

Is this box at a height that would make sense for a switch?
 
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Tommy10toes said:
Those wires are definitely brown though – the photo just doesn’t show it very well.
Click to expand...

Are you in the UK?

Tommy10toes said:
To ascertain whether this is relating to a light circuit or a socket circuit - is the simplest way of doing this by seeing which of the switches on the fuse board sends voltage to the wires ?
Click to expand...

The first thing is to look at it, the location of it, the size of the cable and the depth of the box will all give clues as to what this was originally for.

Looking at the picture I see things which suggest it is likely to have been a lightswitch.


Then after that use a voltage tester (not a neon screwdriver or anything like that, they are not safe to be poking in mains wiring) and operate circuit breakers one at a time to establish which circuit it is connected to.
 
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Might be the angle of the photo, but it looks like a 12mm deep box. Only really used for light switches as anything else is too deep behind the plate to fit in.

Is there a light in this pantry? Switch outside the door roughly in line with this box?
I think original switch was here, inside… but it was awkward to use when shelves were full.
Someone in the past jointed through the cables and ran to a new switch position.

I also think the red is live. The black is switchwire up to the light. There is no neutral here.
 
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If the cable is 2.5mm2 twin & earth, it could also be a switch for the immersion - in the past, it was popular to provide an additional switch (as well as the one next to the hot water tank) to save running upstairs to switch it on.
 
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Cagethethird said:
As already said, its a shallow box. You can see the oval knock outs on the back and the fact the cable going up in the middle of the box.
Almost definitely an old lightswitch so again as said, no neutral.
Its not a brown, its black with dust on.
Click to expand...
YES!
thanks cagethebird and everyone else who's helped to identify that it is indeed a Light switch!!! and the wires are black, not brown. ( I attach a much better photo)

its also at light-switch height.
I don't know why it didn't cross my mind in the first place... probably cos its in a cupboard.

Anyway, the deeper i go into this thread, the less I realise I know. Which is why I'm here in the first place I suppose.

I don't think i'll be attempting any DIY on this based on my lack of knowledge, but I'm still quite interested in the how and why of this. I've been seeing quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.

this for example:How To Wire A Plug Socket From A Light Switch? - Meter Test Lab - https://metertestlab.co.uk/how-to-wire-a-plug-socket-from-a-light-switch/#:~:text=Connecting%20the%20Socket,to%20see%20if%20it's%20working.

In my case i'd be wanting it for the purpose of a microwave, which is about 800w - would this have an impact on the theoretical idea of taking power from a light circuit? Its very convenient to do it this way if it possible as the wires are all in the perfect place.

comments on this thread seem to suggest its a no-go but other info online seems to say its fine, so i'm interested to hear what people think.

thanks
 

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Tommy10toes said:
I don't think i'll be attempting any DIY on this based on my lack of knowledge, but I'm still quite interested in the how and why of this. I've been seeing quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.
Click to expand...

One of the main reasons for putting a socket onto a lighting circuit is if you want to add an LED trip light to it, as they usually come with a plug. These lights do not use lots of current, so are usually safe to add to a lighting circuit.
Personally I wouldn't like to plug a microwave to a lighting circuit.
 
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In the Uk, we don’t normally supply a “general power socket” from a lighting circuit.

They tend to only have a 6 amp supply, and use a cable that can carry maybe 20A in good conditions.

A historical evolution of the electrical installations after copper shortages during the wars.

We do however find sockets for lights that come with a plug fitted, or a socket in an attic for a tv amplifier…. But generally, you don’t find sockets on a light circuit.
It still wouldn’t work in your case as there is no neutral at the switch.

In America, and other countries… we can find lighting and outlets on the same circuit as they design the circuits to all use the same size cable.
 
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Tommy10toes said:
YES!
thanks cagethebird and everyone else who's helped to identify that it is indeed a Light switch!!! and the wires are black, not brown. ( I attach a much better photo)

its also at light-switch height.
I don't know why it didn't cross my mind in the first place... probably cos its in a cupboard.

Anyway, the deeper i go into this thread, the less I realise I know. Which is why I'm here in the first place I suppose.

I don't think i'll be attempting any DIY on this based on my lack of knowledge, but I'm still quite interested in the how and why of this. I've been seeing quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.

this for example:How To Wire A Plug Socket From A Light Switch? - Meter Test Lab - https://metertestlab.co.uk/how-to-wire-a-plug-socket-from-a-light-switch/#:~:text=Connecting%20the%20Socket,to%20see%20if%20it's%20working.

In my case i'd be wanting it for the purpose of a microwave, which is about 800w - would this have an impact on the theoretical idea of taking power from a light circuit? Its very convenient to do it this way if it possible as the wires are all in the perfect place.

comments on this thread seem to suggest its a no-go but other info online seems to say its fine, so i'm interested to hear what people think.

thanks
Click to expand...
5 amp sockets are used on the lighting circuit, meaning they are switched on and off with the light switches in the room, rather than being used like regular plug sockets. They are designed for appliances that take less than a 5 amp current, for example floor lamps, table lamps and fans. These sockets do not work for larger appliances like fridges, washing machines and TVs
 
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Tommy10toes said:
In my case i'd be wanting it for the purpose of a microwave, which is about 800w - would this have an impact on the theoretical idea of taking power from a light circuit? Its very convenient to do it this way if it possible as the wires are all in the perfect place.
Click to expand...
Light switches (at least from that era) tend to only have a live coming in and a live going back to the light (known as a switched live). The red tape around one of the wires is the way switched lives are marked, and a requirement of the wiring regs. To power anything you need a neutral, and there isn't one. Just because a wire is black doesn't mean it is a neutral. So as already said above, attempting to connect a socket there simply won't work.

The wires look like they are an extension to another light switch, i.e. the light switch was moved and those connections are still live and needed. This is reasonably likely. Doing anything at all to that wiring without testing it first is dangerous and may well stop another light switch working.

There are indeed some situations where a socket on a lighting circuit is feasible but as it wouldn't work anyway, and it wouldn't be suitable to power a microwave I won't waste time talking about them. The article you linked to doesn't even entertain the idea that there isn't a neutral at the switch, apart from saying "You can plug something into the socket to see if it’s working.".

Even it if were all possible there are other considerations when adding sockets, including ensuring RCD protection which is something that many houses lighting circuits do not have.

Most of the above has been stated in this thread already, I'm really just consolidating the answers for you. I'm afraid it's a complete non-starter.

If you need a socket for a microwave just ask a sparks how difficult it would be to add one.
 
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timhoward said:
Light switches (at least from that era) tend to only have a live coming in and a live going back to the light (known as a switched live). The red tape around one of the wires is the way switched lives are marked, and a requirement of the wiring regs. To power anything you need a neutral, and there isn't one. Just because a wire is black doesn't mean it is a neutral. So as already said above, attempting to connect a socket there simply won't work.

The wires look like they are an extension to another light switch, i.e. the light switch was moved and those connections are still live and needed. This is reasonably likely. Doing anything at all to that wiring without testing it first is dangerous and may well stop another light switch working.

There are indeed some situations where a socket on a lighting circuit is feasible but as it wouldn't work anyway, and it wouldn't be suitable to power a microwave I won't waste time talking about them. The article you linked to doesn't even entertain the idea that there isn't a neutral at the switch, apart from saying "You can plug something into the socket to see if it’s working.".

Even it if were all possible there are other considerations when adding sockets, including ensuring RCD protection which is something that many houses lighting circuits do not have.

Most of the above has been stated in this thread already, I'm really just consolidating the answers for you. I'm afraid it's a complete non-starter.

If you need a socket for a microwave just ask a sparks how difficult it would be to add one.
Click to expand...

I think that explains the situation perfectly- thanks for articulating it so well and helping me understand.

I’ll see what a local electrician will quote.

Glad I came on here and didn’t attempt anything daft…
 
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quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.
Click to expand...

Much wiring advice you can find online is misleading or wrong, or applies to the regulations of one specific country without saying which country that is. The article you linked was written by someone very ignorant of electrical wiring and safety and is simply wrong in many ways. Actually what has happened is they have taken an American article which was probably already badly written, and attempted to 'convert' it for the UK by changing the USA wiring colours to the UK colours, without realising that the regulations and standards are completely different. I am going to leave a comment that is is misleading and dangerous advice to be giving out.

Like deciding which side of the road to drive on, there is no one 'best' system overall but you have to stick to one system or another, you can't mix and match. So while it's OK to put sockets on a USA lighting circuit, it's not right in the UK. OTOH in the UK you can plug a dryer into a regular socket but in the USA you need a special heavy-duty circuit and dedicated socket. Each has its pros and cons.
 
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thats a a single socket on a ring main no reason why a new socket could not be added just find which circuit its part of live and neutral into the socket plus the earth a simple job
Click to expand...

I think we've established with reasonable certainty that it's not. It seems to be wired in 1.5mm, with red tape on the black, in a shallow box at lightswitch height, passing through a switch drop to a new switch position.
 
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davesparks said:
Are you in the UK?



The first thing is to look at it, the location of it, the size of the cable and the depth of the box will all give clues as to what this was originally for.

Looking at the picture I see things which suggest it is likely to have been a lightswitch.


Then after that use a voltage tester (not a neon screwdriver or anything like that, they are not safe to be poking in mains wiring) and operate circuit breakers one at a time to establish which circuit it is connected to.
Click to expand...
its a shallow box but set in deep remove them connectors loads of depth to fit a single socket
 
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yorkieone said:
it looks like a single socket on a ring was removed so adding it back is easy but, find the fuse circuit its on guessing its a 32 amp ring or 16/20 amp radial
Click to expand...

Looking like something and actually being that thing are very different propositions.

If we set apparent conductor size to one side, as images can be misleading, and also the red tape, which may not have been placed there to indicate a switched live, we still can not be certain that it isn't a redundant light switch. What can not be set to one side is the 16mm box and I can not conceive that this was ever likely to have been placed behind anything other than a light switch.
 
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nicebutdim said:
Looking like something and actually being that thing are very different propositions.

If we set apparent conductor size to one side, as images can be misleading, and also the red tape, which may not have been placed there to indicate a switched live, we still can not be certain that it isn't a redundant light switch. What can not be set to one side is the 16mm box and I can not conceive that this was ever likely to have been placed behind anything other than a light switch.
Click to expand...
wrong back box fitted my guess it a deep hole
 
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littlespark said:
Might be the angle of the photo, but it looks like a 12mm deep box. Only really used for light switches as anything else is too deep behind the plate to fit in.

Is there a light in this pantry? Switch outside the door roughly in line with this box?
I think original switch was here, inside… but it was awkward to use when shelves were full.
Someone in the past jointed through the cables and ran to a new switch position.

I also think the red is live. The black is switchwire up to the light. There is no neutral here.
Click to expand...
wrong back box fitted might be what your seeing
 
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first do you know the difference between 2.5 and 1.5 cable if 2.5 then its power and I have seen 16 amp radials in 1.5 if you have a volt meter tester find the fuse that turns the power off to that circuit to me it looks like 2.5 but photos can mislead
 
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davesparks said:
Are you in the UK?



The first thing is to look at it, the location of it, the size of the cable and the depth of the box will all give clues as to what this was originally for.

Looking at the picture I see things which suggest it is likely to have been a lightswitch.


Then after that use a voltage tester (not a neon screwdriver or anything like that, they are not safe to be poking in mains wiring) and operate circuit breakers one at a time to establish which circuit it is connected to.
Click to expand...
it may just being used to extend the cable and nothing was ever fitted on that back box
 
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OP means “original post” or “original poster”

The evidence we have is a single box. We think it’s shallow, so suggests a switch, rather than a socket. But photo can be deceiving.
It also shows 1.5mm cable. Again, not conclusive.
Red tape on black conductor. This also suggests a light switch. Red for feed, identified black for switch wire.

I’d say discarded lightswitch 99% sure.


The 100% confirmation is by testing between that red and black. Which none of us can do over the internet.

The OP has already said he will get an electrician in. Best course of action.
 
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Tommy10toes

Tommy10toes

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