Convenience Store Lighting Rewire

[IAmSparkytus!]

Any issues with wiring lighting in 4core flex rather than 3core and earth?

Approximately 50 LED panels to wire all fitting into a suspended ceiling.

I know some lighting design/manufacturing companies sell plug and play style fittings and wiring which I think may be H05.

Is there a great deal of different in the properties of standard rubber flex (not sure of the correct cable ref for this) and H05?

Can both be used or stick to H07?

 

[nicebutdim]

Flex from marshalling boxes or roses? This would be fairly conventional in 3183B (H05).

 

[DefyG]

I think H05 is a bit of an overkill, a standard general purpose pvc/pvc flexible cable would suffice and be cheaper too.
H05 is (or I thought) for external (wet) areas and also resistant to oils and the like.

 

[davesparks]

How is the cable being installed?

This sounds like it would lend itself to a system like the multiway rock-rose (Klick I think is the proper name) boxes. Depending on exactly how it is all being installed I would normally go for 3C&E flexshield as my cable of choice for such an install if it needs an insulated and sheathed cable.

Otherwise the old school way is steel trunking/conduit and rock roses. This is my preferred method if its being wired before the ceiling grid is installed and there isn't a ridiculous time pressure.

 

[nicebutdim]

I think H05 is a bit of an overkill, a standard general purpose pvc/pvc flexible cable would suffice and be cheaper too.
H05 is (or I thought) for external (wet) areas and also resistant to oils and the like.

H05 is a general designation that covers many types of sheath/insulation including PVC, EPDM, rubber & more

 

[Dustydazzler]

Nearly every refurb shop fit that I have worked on the wiring is LSOH flat cable for the fixed wiring and just normal flex to the lights with some white FP thrown in for good measure

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Suspended ceiling already in place.

Customer wanting to save costs and not interested in paying for marshaling boxes etc.

Good old fashioned in and out using wago accessories has been agreed. Definitely not my preferred method or first choice but can't see any reason why this isn't acceptable for current regs and saves the customer a few quid. I think the marshaling boxes are approximately £80-100 each so saving £400-500 on boxes alone. Add in the cost of the Klik plugs and pre-made leads etc, could be saving £600-750.... mad.

 

[davesparks]

I think H05 is a bit of an overkill, a standard general purpose pvc/pvc flexible cable would suffice and be cheaper too.
H05 is (or I thought) for external (wet) areas and also resistant to oils and the like.

Whether it is H03, H05 or H07 has nothing to with its suitability for a particular area, it is the standard it complies with and voltage rating of the insulation.
Standard singles are an H07 cable and they certainly aren't suitable for being outside of a conduit, let alone outdoors.

H = meets harmonised standards.
Voltage ratings are (Uo/U) :
01 = 100/100V
03 = 300/300V
05 = 300/500V rating
07 = 450/750V

It's the letters after this which tell you what tbe insulation and sheath (if any) are made of (therefore the type of environment it is suitable for, temperature resistance etc), type of conductors (F = flexible for example)

So
H05-VVF is PVC/PVC flex
H05-RRF is rubber/rubber flex
H07-RNF is rubber/neoprene (IIRC) flex, which is the generally accepted stardard for a heavy duty, weather resistant, oil resistant etc etc flex.

I'm not sure if it is still true but the regulations used to suggest H07-RNF as a benchmark standard for flex suitable for general purpose permanent installation.

 

[davesparks]

Suspended ceiling already in place.

Customer wanting to save costs and not interested in paying for marshaling boxes etc.

Good old fashioned in and out using wago accessories has been agreed. Definitely not my preferred method or first choice but can't see any reason why this isn't acceptable for current regs and saves the customer a few quid. I think the marshaling boxes are approximately £80-100 each so saving £400-500 on boxes alone. Add in the cost of the Klik plugs and pre-made leads etc, could be saving £600-750.... mad.

Ah yes, the good old customer-led cheap design without thought for ease of future modification, maintainence, fault finding or health and safety.

How are the cable being installed? Are you proposing flex for the entire installation?

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Whether it is H03, H05 or H07 has nothing to with its suitability for a particular area, it is the standard it complies with and voltage rating of the insulation.
Standard singles are an H07 cable and they certainly aren't suitable for being outside of a conduit, let alone outdoors.

H = meets harmonised standards.
Voltage ratings are (Uo/U) :
01 = 100/100V
03 = 300/300V
05 = 300/500V rating
07 = 450/750V

It's the letters after this which tell you what tbe insulation and sheath (if any) are made of (therefore the type of environment it is suitable for, temperature resistance etc), type of conductors (F = flexible for example)

So
H05-VVF is PVC/PVC flex
H05-RRF is rubber/rubber flex
H07-RNF is rubber/neoprene (IIRC) flex, which is the generally accepted stardard for a heavy duty, weather resistant, oil resistant etc etc flex.

I'm not sure if it is still true but the regulations used to suggest H07-RNF as a benchmark standard for flex suitable for general purpose permanent installation.

Sounds like H07-RNF is what I'll be needing then. Thanks for that.

 

[davesparks]

Sounds like H07-RNF is what I'll be needing then. Thanks for that.

I wouldnt have thought so, surely you'll want an LSF cable? And if you want to keep costs down H07-RNF won't help you!

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Ah yes, the good old customer-led cheap design without thought for ease of future modification, maintainence, fault finding or health and safety.

How are the cable being installed? Are you proposing flex for the entire installation?

Wouldn't say it was customer-led. The customer was given acceptable options and decided for themselves what they could afford. I don't see an issue with that.

Whats the health and safety aspect of the proposed work which concerns you?

 

[James]

How are you going to support it?

 

[Dustydazzler]

How are you going to support it?

I presume like 99% of shop fitters , 6 inch black cable ties to the rods

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Everyone's had 2p put in their box tonight it seems!

Metal fixing band above the ceiling as containment. Again, cost cutting. Usually fit basket tray but this is £10-£15 per length as opposed to a £5 roll of hole-band!

 

[davesparks]

Wouldn't say it was customer-led. The customer was given acceptable options and decided for themselves what they could afford. I don't see an issue with that.

Whats the health and safety aspect of the proposed work which concerns you?

It is not health and safety of the proposed work but of future maintainence and fault finding work.

Being able to unplug a light fitting and take it down to work on it or replace it reduces your working at height risks.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

529.9.1
A flexible cable shall be used for fixed wiring only where the relevant provisions of the Regulations are met. Flexible cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty type unless the risk of damage during installation and service, due to impact or other mechanical stresses, is low or has been minimized or protection against mechanical damage is provided.

NOTE:
Descriptions of light, ordinary and heavy duty types are given in BS EN 50565-1.

I'd have thought for this the risk of damage would be low, so perhaps heavy duty not necessary, IMO.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Very unlikely imo flex hooned in a ceiling void will be subject to much mechanical stress

 

[James]

Everyone's had 2p put in their box tonight it seems!

Metal fixing band above the ceiling as containment. Again, cost cutting. Usually fit basket tray but this is £10-£15 per length as opposed to a £5 roll of hole-band!

Look, I get it, sometimes the customer can’t afford the AAA* job you would like to do.

however we have to be careful not to lower the standard so far that it gets close to not compliant installation.

note, it is so frustrating when you put klick sockets in all the right places and then the ceiling grid goes up and the fitters turn the space above into an imitation of a snake pit with lighting and data cables everywhere.

 

[nicebutdim]

note, it is so frustrating when you put klick sockets in all the right places and then the ceiling grid goes up and the fitters turn the space above into an imitation of a snake pit with lighting and data cables everywhere.

Equally frustrating when you put them in all the right places, but later find youself fitting out rooms in which someone paid no heed to drawings.