Looped service cost for unlooping

[Ericsson]

Hi everyone we are in the process of installing a new heat pump in our Victorian maisonette. The whole house is 4 stories and it was split into two separate flats a few decades ago. The service is looped between us and the upstairs flat. UKPN came around and estimated that we need an upgrade to a three phase fuse. They said we need to cover the cost (almost 8000£!). From all the reading I have done the cost to unloop the service should be covered by the UKPN and not passed on to us. Also the requirement for a three phase fuse upgrade seems to be so that both properties are covered rather than just us (a single phase 100smp fuse should be enough for our property only) . I would have thought that 2 separate single phase 100amp installations should also suffice. What am I missing here? I also read that from April 2023 DNOs will be responsible to cover these costs anyway? No one at UKPN was forthcoming with information.. Does anyone know what needs to happen in this case?

 

[James]

try telling them that your plans have changed, you are now looking at installing an EV (car) charger
more often than not, they will unloop the supply for free.

 

[snowhead]

I suspect UKPN aren't quoting for unlooping, what they will be quoting for is to upgrade the supply to the property suitable for 2 flats, something which should have been done at the time of conversion.

 

[Ericsson]

I heard back from UKPN after challenging their original assessment. They backtracked on the need to have a three phase fuse installed but they now say that it is not a looped supply but a single phase supply which laterally feeds my upstairs neighbour via a private cable..
I am now thinking that something went really wrong when the property was split into 2 flats, however, surely if the upstairs property is not having their own direct supply from the DNO the DNO is responsible to install one and cover the cost?

 

[pc1966]

Can you post a couple of good photos of your supply cut-out and feed to the meter (but redact any meter serial no or barcodes)?

Hopefully that might show how the cable to the upstairs block is connected and maybe answer your question.

 

[Ericsson]

Can you post a couple of good photos of your supply cut-out and feed to the meter (but redact any meter serial no or barcodes)?

Hopefully that might show how the cable to the upstairs block is connected and maybe answer your question.

I think my neighbour's supply is from the 2 cables you can see in the 3rd photo that they then join and form the white cable...

 

[LewisM]

Yeah thats an old pyro, very common around my way, big old victorian houses that the downstairs and upstairs have been turned into separate properties after the war. They unfortunately in my experience won't do anything for free as its not their property, interesting way of picking the earth up too.

 

[Ericsson]

Yeah thats an old pyro, very common around my way, big old victorian houses that the downstairs and upstairs have been turned into separate properties after the war. They unfortunately in my experience won't do anything for free as its not their property, interesting way of picking the earth up too.

How can they claim that it is not their property though? The cable comes out of the DNO cut-out, the definition of a looped supply is that 2 properties share a single electricity service cable from the main network, which it is definitely the case here. Aren't they really splitting hairs here because they try to avoid to cover the cost?

 

[MJPD29]

I cant see them covering the cost, its not a nessescity its just something you want to do. They will likely say its you who wants to install the heat pump, therefore you who is instigating this and therefore you will pay for the work. Not ideal, but all you can do is try and annoy them until they possibly reconsider.

 

[davesparks]

How can they claim that it is not their property though? The cable comes out of the DNO cut-out, the definition of a looped supply is that 2 properties share a single electricity service cable from the main network, which it is definitely the case here. Aren't they really splitting hairs here because they try to avoid to cover the cost?

It is not sharing a sevice cable, there is only one service cable.

There are two outing connections from the cutout, but that is still only one service cable.

 

[Ericsson]

It is not sharing a sevice cable, there is only one service cable.

There are two outing connections from the cutout, but that is still only one service cable.

As I discovered today during their second 'autopsy' visit they call this a riser connection. This whole thing gets convoluted very quickly but what is really strange, for me at least, is that when I asked why can't we have (even if we have to pay) two separate single phase connections, one for each property, rather than a three phase one for both they said that technically only the latter can be done. Is this true?
I care less about the technicalities and more about the fact that the 3 phase installation is double the cost (and I assume profit to the DNO) of the two separate single phase installations. So not only we have to pay for the 'upgrade' that we dont need but we also have to pay the most expensive option! They were less clear about their responsibilities as part of the upcoming RIIO 2 EDN. My impression is that RIIO 2 forces the DNOs to facilitate the installation of thousands of heat pumps and EV charges by absorbing the cost..

 

[MJPD29]

2 single phase connections they have to run 2 cables and make 2 terminations wherever that may be, three phase connection 1 cable. They probably have more reasons beyond that too.

 

[timhoward]

Even if a 3 phase supply was installed, would the DNO be willing to reconnect those pyro (possibly >3m ) tails to upstairs?

 

[Ericsson]

Even if a 3 phase supply was installed, would the DNO be willing to reconnect those pyro (possibly >3m ) tails to upstairs?

No, but they say it is not their responsibility either way (our electrician should do it), they even said that as far they are concerned they are happy for the whole thing to stay as is. As far as I can tell the existing installation is 1) dangerous and 2) invalidates any EICR the upstairs property has obtained. Upstairs EICR is less than 2 years old apparently(!) they also said something about it needs to be 3 phase because of the earthing(?) but this latter point is stretching my googling abilities a bit too much.

 

[MJPD29]

No, but they say it is not their responsibility either way (our electrician should do it), they even said that as far they are concerned they are happy for the whole thing to stay as is. As far as I can tell the existing installation is 1) dangerous and 2) invalidates any EICR the upstairs property has obtained. Upstairs EICR is less than 2 years old apparently(!) they also said something about it needs to be 3 phase because of the earthing(?) but this latter point is stretching my googling abilities a bit too much.

Do you have any proof of immediate danger? Its probably the only way they will cover any cost. If not its highly likely you'll have to pay for what you want. At the end of the day it's you who wants to upgrade, they consider their equipment fine for continued use.

 

[Ericsson]

Do you have any proof of immediate danger? Its probably the only way they will cover any cost. If not its highly likely you'll have to pay for what you want. At the end of the day it's you who wants to upgrade, they consider their equipment fine for continued use.

I mean it survived for 50+ years without the whole building coming down in flames so who knows! I had 2 electricians coming in and they both said this is unsafe. We triggered the whole because of the heat pump installation and different rules apply in theory for this category of installations.
What is probably little known is that most other DNOs will absorb the cost of 3 phase 'upgrades' as part of net zero and the policy towards boosting the uptake of EV and heat pumps from 1st of April onwards. UKPN are not forthcoming on what their position is and that is highly problematic.

 

[MJPD29]

I mean it survived for 50+ years without the whole building coming down in flames so who knows! I had 2 electricians coming in and they both said this is unsafe. We triggered the whole because of the heat pump installation and different rules apply in theory for this category of installations.
What is probably little known is that most other DNOs will absorb the cost of 3 phase 'upgrades' as part of net zero and the policy towards boosting the uptake of EV and heat pumps from 1st of April onwards. UKPN are not forthcoming on what their position is and that is highly problematic.

They don't absorb any here, any 3 phase installation is always at the customers cost, I'm yet to come across a free upgrade. I wish you all the best anyway, its always nice to get some money out of these big companies.

 

[davesparks]

what is really strange, for me at least, is that when I asked why can't we have (even if we have to pay) two separate single phase connections, one for each property, rather than a three phase one for both they said that technically only the latter can be done. Is this true?

Yes that is true.

DNO's as a rule won't install more than one supply into a building like they used to do because it has been found that this can lead to some dangerous situations occurring.