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Stuff that for a lark.
Nerys Hughes wasn't it along with some other Bird can't think of her name
Yeah Righti meant these pair.they sit on top of the Liver Building all day, but if you are patient, around 6.00a.m. and 10.00p.m.they fly down for a swim. it's a bit suicidal because they're made of bronze.
O
Octopus
Back to the op, at the week end the EU negotiator told a group of people, off the record, in Italy that he was going to punish the UK and educate us ........
I've yet to hear him clarify what he meant or deny it ........
I've yet to hear him clarify what he meant or deny it ........
S
Squid
The Northern States fecked over the Southern States as they needed labour to work the rubbish jobs to pay in to the social system, look at the Germans and what they get in retirement pension wise compared to the UK, thus they needed the labour Merkel thought it would be a good idea to let the muslims in but al they do is take out of the system.
don't worry about Italy, they'll change sides in a year or so.
I have more to add
My opinion thats been rated 8 to 2 in favour of dislike of my post,it seems to be a true reflection of this forums overall rejection of the Eu by a large majority
Whilst I have not changed my own stance one bit,I do have some thoughts that may not be so contencious
Its all to do with the latest rantings of the man who I believe is mainly responsible for the majority vote to leave the Eu,one Tony Blair
It was he who caused one of the main issues that has divided the UK
In a selfish and very damaging way he opened the door to a worldwide increase in immigration that has repercussions to this day,all done so that the new labour vote would likely increase on the back of these new arrivals and secure his type of socialism for a generation,it backfired spectacularly
The referendum was a democratic vote where the majority held a different view to my own, I accept that for the will of the people of the UK and can go along with that choice that was made
What I find annoying is to read this fake socialist in the news dishing out ideas that he thinks will sort out the problem,when it was himself that caused the problem in his time in office
His failings in this and his lap dog stance with the American president in foreign conflicts makes him the last person for anyone to take heed
He needs to shut up,enjoy the fortune he has amassed on the back of a working mans party and maybe emigrate himself
My opinion thats been rated 8 to 2 in favour of dislike of my post,it seems to be a true reflection of this forums overall rejection of the Eu by a large majority
Whilst I have not changed my own stance one bit,I do have some thoughts that may not be so contencious
Its all to do with the latest rantings of the man who I believe is mainly responsible for the majority vote to leave the Eu,one Tony Blair
It was he who caused one of the main issues that has divided the UK
In a selfish and very damaging way he opened the door to a worldwide increase in immigration that has repercussions to this day,all done so that the new labour vote would likely increase on the back of these new arrivals and secure his type of socialism for a generation,it backfired spectacularly
The referendum was a democratic vote where the majority held a different view to my own, I accept that for the will of the people of the UK and can go along with that choice that was made
What I find annoying is to read this fake socialist in the news dishing out ideas that he thinks will sort out the problem,when it was himself that caused the problem in his time in office
His failings in this and his lap dog stance with the American president in foreign conflicts makes him the last person for anyone to take heed
He needs to shut up,enjoy the fortune he has amassed on the back of a working mans party and maybe emigrate himself
You comments are very much the consensus of remainers who have a very shallow narrow minded reasoning of why people voted out without digging deeper
It has cost my mates business somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 a million pounds to comply with an EU directive just so he can sell his goods having got approval in the UK this does not carry across all EU member states as you would expect and so the spend continues in each and every state he has customers he has to get it approved by their approval authority, on top of this some crazy EU bureaucrats were considering monitoring the background levels of ethylene in the atmosphere and raising a tax on ethylene production for fruit ripening if levels were found to be increasing
There are probably many more similar examples of EU bureaucracy that is costing business millions of pounds that is ultimately passed onto the person buying the goods
Add to that the corrupt EU commission who are a law unto themselves and apparently answer to no one
The remainers really need to look at the wider issues of the EU instead of just accepting the status quo it is very patronising continually being told why I and many others voted out when the reasons given are no where near the real facts, both referendum campaigns were very poor and light on fact, what was the deal that Cameron's shuffle diplomacy negotiated that the EU said they would renege on really says a lot about the EU, yes the out campaign promised things that were pie in the sky but both sides did that
Barnier is making out he is playing hard ball with the leave negotiation the truth is he has nothing to work with because the EU hierarchy won't allow him any scope and the EU are hoping that leaving doesn't happen. To revoke article 50 now would allow the EU to set the terms of our continued membership and give them a free for all
The problem at the moment is two fold
There are the financial markets who seem to be propping up the Euro when the Euro zone could be a bit of a lame duck with a budget black hole once brexit goes through
And the non democratic remainers who are fighting for democracy telling us we got it wrong and we need to carry on voting until we get it right
This country is in a hole right now because so many people are talking it and brexit down at every opportunity let's be positive and move forward
UNG's comments above are now even further reinforced by the intransigent, stubborn and downright childish stance reported on in today's news. Quite obviously, the EU "negotiators" have no intention of conducting any meaningful dialogue, and are only concerned with attempting to extract the maximum amount of money from the UK in a pathetic attempt to both punish us for daring to leave their "club", and/or to bolster the kitty which our departure will leave somewhat depleted. As I have thought since day one, the only hope is when the bosses of the likes of BMW and so on become involved and take over from the non-elected, dictatorial and self proclaimed "leaders" of the federal state of Europe, the existence of whom are justification enough, in my opinion, to wave goodbye to this farce, let alone the multitude of other benefits.
The current stalemate that the negotiations have hit doesn't appear to help either side and the hard line no room for movement stance of the EU isn't helping when trying to find a solution.
I suppose the question that needs answering is what would a no deal exit mean for both sides and which one has more to lose.
With all the media speculation and the endless number of so called experts wheeled out to bolster all sides of the remain / leave, soft / hard / no deal brexit it is difficult filter out the real facts from the speculative scare fiction that is being pedalled, On that March day in 2019 will things just stop, pre the new millennium, the millennium bug was going to bring the world to a grinding halt on the stroke of new years day did that happen no, so to 2019 is the brexit bug going to bring things to a grinding halt between the UK and EU especially if there is no deal I doubt it, it will probably not be all plain sailing but businesses will adapt on both sides.
I think the EU has more to lose with a no deal as it will need to very quickly need to sort out it's budget having lost a major contributor to the coffers, in the short to medium term the 27 remaining states will have a job on to keep the EU together as pressure is put on their own budgets in order to prop up the EU and in the more prosperous states where most of the burden is likely to fall the populous may begin to question the value of the EU
There is more to brexit than the UK leaving the EU and it seems the EU leaders have their fingers in their ears and their eyes closed, with the current situation should the UK withdraw from the negotiations in my opinion at this moment it would have to be yes as much as we need a trade deal with the EU they need a trade deal with the UK, the EU needs to set out it's position as much as the UK needs to.
Negotiation is normally undertaken to find a middle ground consensus, something that the EU's negotiator Barnier and his bosses seem to have overlooked with their demands
I suppose the question that needs answering is what would a no deal exit mean for both sides and which one has more to lose.
With all the media speculation and the endless number of so called experts wheeled out to bolster all sides of the remain / leave, soft / hard / no deal brexit it is difficult filter out the real facts from the speculative scare fiction that is being pedalled, On that March day in 2019 will things just stop, pre the new millennium, the millennium bug was going to bring the world to a grinding halt on the stroke of new years day did that happen no, so to 2019 is the brexit bug going to bring things to a grinding halt between the UK and EU especially if there is no deal I doubt it, it will probably not be all plain sailing but businesses will adapt on both sides.
I think the EU has more to lose with a no deal as it will need to very quickly need to sort out it's budget having lost a major contributor to the coffers, in the short to medium term the 27 remaining states will have a job on to keep the EU together as pressure is put on their own budgets in order to prop up the EU and in the more prosperous states where most of the burden is likely to fall the populous may begin to question the value of the EU
There is more to brexit than the UK leaving the EU and it seems the EU leaders have their fingers in their ears and their eyes closed, with the current situation should the UK withdraw from the negotiations in my opinion at this moment it would have to be yes as much as we need a trade deal with the EU they need a trade deal with the UK, the EU needs to set out it's position as much as the UK needs to.
Negotiation is normally undertaken to find a middle ground consensus, something that the EU's negotiator Barnier and his bosses seem to have overlooked with their demands
Trigering artical 50 was about the UK leaving the EU, nothing else. Trade deals are a seperate thing entirely, we requested early talks on our trading relationship with the EU and as it would be to the EUs benifit as well as the UKs the EU agreed to early talks as long as sufficient progress had been made in the exit negotions, mainly the settlement figure, EUs citizens rights and the Irish border. This has not happened.
Don't believe the deluded claims by some of the more rabid brexiters that they have more to lose than us, 44% of our trade is to the EU, just 15% of theirs is to us. It's very very important to the EU but a lot more important to us. Also the loss or revenue from us is overstated, it's generally accepted that our net contribution is £10b, not a small sum but in an economy the size of the EU not a great deal. And don't forget this is between 27 countries, so £370m each (not much more per year than our NHS will be better off per week apparently)
Regarding planes flying to Europe the day after we leave, I believe they will. But guess what? that will need an agreement to be signed, you cant get away from it.
I am not entirely sure about the loss of income as described in Andy's post. I do not profess to be in possession of the exact figures, however is it not the case that the UK, Germany and France between them make up the bulk of the contributions? A lot of the other member states contribute very little, indeed I wouldn't mind betting that some of them just purely benefit. I don't think that, just using common sense, it is realistic to say the loss of our contributions will be overstated, or anything other than a disaster for the EU. That is why they are behaving in the stubborn and negative manner you see at present. I am sure that the bulk of these 27 countries contribute nothing like the big 3. I have just watched Junkers on TV this lunchtime, the man is a vindictive idiot.
Article 50 is available for any state to withdraw,its also a very strict deterrent to those who would want to withdraw,that is the main and only idea of that get out clause
If its triggered,all the cards of the country wishing to withdraw are played
The Eu can then set the agenda whilst under no obligation to make any kinds of deals that may not suit that agenda,it is a no win gamble by any country embarking on that course
If we leave without a trade deal (never mind the repercussions or not for the EU)it will have wide ranging negative effects for the country irrespective of how its glossed over
We are and will be, as warned,in a "no win" situation that the young will have to bear in the future,its the cost of a silly decision and its a decision that definitely will be regretted in times to come
Imagine the situation where we are unable to agree a trade deal with our nearest neighbour and main trading partner and a huge section of the world trade economy
If we can't agree with our neighbours,we have no hope in hell of getting trade deals worldwide with other countries who have their own deals and friends to placate in the short term
It always takes many years to make trade deals whatever countries are involved
The EU has the upper hand and was always going to have the upper hand,it does so irrespective of the situation we find ourselves in where we have a government with no idea of what they want negotiating with a trade block that needs to know what it is we want before they can respond
Its a sorry situation where MPs are going to have to deliver on a decision when very few of them agreed with the decision that was made
The bed has been made,its no good moaning about how those nasty EU folk are treating us,lets remember the whole sorry saga was instigated by ourselves
If its triggered,all the cards of the country wishing to withdraw are played
The Eu can then set the agenda whilst under no obligation to make any kinds of deals that may not suit that agenda,it is a no win gamble by any country embarking on that course
If we leave without a trade deal (never mind the repercussions or not for the EU)it will have wide ranging negative effects for the country irrespective of how its glossed over
We are and will be, as warned,in a "no win" situation that the young will have to bear in the future,its the cost of a silly decision and its a decision that definitely will be regretted in times to come
Imagine the situation where we are unable to agree a trade deal with our nearest neighbour and main trading partner and a huge section of the world trade economy
If we can't agree with our neighbours,we have no hope in hell of getting trade deals worldwide with other countries who have their own deals and friends to placate in the short term
It always takes many years to make trade deals whatever countries are involved
The EU has the upper hand and was always going to have the upper hand,it does so irrespective of the situation we find ourselves in where we have a government with no idea of what they want negotiating with a trade block that needs to know what it is we want before they can respond
Its a sorry situation where MPs are going to have to deliver on a decision when very few of them agreed with the decision that was made
The bed has been made,its no good moaning about how those nasty EU folk are treating us,lets remember the whole sorry saga was instigated by ourselves
O
Octopus
Not sure I agree with this!
Read item 2 below!
Article 50
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
SO:
"future relationship" can easily be interpreted to include trade, along with the rights of citizens.
The EU have been banging on about the rights of citizens, yet keeping very quiet about trade.
I don't think the EU are playing by the same set of rules as this article was intended.
Sorry Murdoch, I don't agree
That's not article 50. it's someones interpretation of it. I'd need to know the source before I give it any credence.
as meaning a trade deal, these take years to complete. I take it to mean taking into account what type of relationship, the framework.
That's not article 50. it's someones interpretation of it. I'd need to know the source before I give it any credence.
O
Octopus
Taking into account - so then we can ignore the human rights bits too
Don't be daft - future relationship encompasses EVERYTHING
If taking into account the framework means everything has to be settled in 2 years (18 months in reality) then I fear they've understimated the amount of time required, probally to the tune of 10 years.
Not sure what your point is with human rights.
O
Octopus
The EU have been banging on about the rights of EU citizens in the UK, and having the ECJ "over" the UK....................... yet saying they won't discuss trade ............. if they hurt the UK, they will only be hurting themselves ........................ far more jobs in the EU depend on the UK than in the UK on the EU...............................
O
Octopus
At the end of the day all this mess is Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's fault - they were at the helm and promised the UK a vote on the Lisbon treaty ................ which the UK would have rejected ............................halting further meddling from Brussels
That's it in a nutshell.
The EEC - YES
The EU with an army, and un-elected politicians calling the shots - NO
That's it in a nutshell.
The EEC - YES
The EU with an army, and un-elected politicians calling the shots - NO
We cannot allow these bureaucrat's to dither and pontificate over what they think is a suitable "punishment". It is quite obvious that the current delegation of "negotiators" are just a bunch of self proclaimed power crazy politicians who care for nothing other than to be seen to be the ones who oversee what they hope will be the demise and humiliation of the UK for having the audacity to leave. I really believe they think that they are some kind of supreme power. If they had been more realistic and stuck to the basic ethos of the original EEC then we would not be facing this exit. For me, I think the time is rapidly approaching where we give them a firm shot over the bows and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they do not start to talk properly and in a sensible time-frame then we will simply up sticks and walk away. Remaining in the single market was never an option anyway, and anyone who thought it was without giving away too much should have got themselves a bit more clued up before they voted in the first place. Its about time we grasped the nettle and stopped listening to the doubters and those with no faith in our country. We do not, and never have, needed these people to prosper on our own merit. We have far too much work to do fostering trade and re-kindling our former partnerships with non-EU countries to let these childish antics drag us down. We should tell them that we are not prepared to wait until the end of November, and that we will be back to resume talks in two weeks, or never.
They don't like it up em, you know.
They don't like it up em, you know.
Tell, go to bed. You're drunk.
I'm a leave voter and my enthusiasm for it has been eroded by constant doom mongering from self important remain leaders who are more concerned about losing their gold plated post-MP jobs and pensions, and the opinion of those negotiating on behalf of the EU that we must concede to everything EU demands and those on the UK side that we must get everything our own way. (And those idiots who misread a slogan on a coach)
I for one voted to leave the political body known as the European Union and not Europe.
I for one voted to leave the political body known as the European Union and not Europe.
I find it bizarre that you put the blame for the situation we're in now at the feet of a few so called 'remain leaders' sugesting that they're worried about post MP jobs, and not at the feet of the either foreign or tax exil billionaire newspaper proprietors who pay no tax in this country and use there media as a propaganda tool. Those and the millionaire tory brexiters who want to keep their precious British overseas tax havens open that the EU are now starting to go after.
Oh! and the idiots who believe whatevers written on the side of a big red bus.
You may have misread or misinterpreted what I have said. I haven't just "put the blame at the feet of a few so called remain leaders." I'm putting the blame squarely on everyone who is working against an amicable split, both sides of the vote and both sides of the water. We've gone back to playground politics. I keep expecting David Davies to come crying that someone nicked his lolly pop and Michel Barnier saying well he took my twix first.
Oh, and it was a coach, not a bus
For me, I think the time is rapidly approaching where we give them a firm shot over the bows and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they do not start to talk properly and in a sensible time-frame then we will simply up sticks and walk away.
Lets hope we don't make matters worse than they certainly will be,we have made enough misjudgements to date
Remember who holds all the cards, its more like damage limitation that we need
Lets hope we don't make matters worse than they certainly will be,we have made enough misjudgements to date
Remember who holds all the cards, its more like damage limitation that we need
Oh, and it was a coach, not a bus
Good point Dave. The brexiters missed a trick there, imagine how many more lies they could of put on a double decker bus.
But how much worse can it get? It is quite clear to me, that the belligerent attitude demonstrated by the EU negotiators make it obvious that all they are interested in is showing the rest of the member states that we will be punished for leaving. It is equally clear, that to simply demand that we pay their "bill" for so doing before any proper negotiations take place, is tantamount to blackmail. We need to force this issue, and hope that by taking a hard line these child-like apologies of European "democrats" will be replaced by people with more sense. Frankly it is no more than I expected and only reinforces my opinion that we need to leave them behind. And as for this bloody bus, I wish people would stop making cheap and unfounded political point scoring out of it. There was never an inference that the whole of the EU "subscription" was going to be transferred straight to the NHS, it was merely underlining the fact that we will be able to decide where we spend the money, whatever the figure is, on what we want to rather than a new road system in Portugal or whatever.
The problem the remainers have is with their definition of democracy and the perceived uninformed total stupidity of those voting for brexit. The bickering and infighting that brexit has caused is doing nothing to help any negotiating position the UK has
There are a hell of a lot more Labour hangers on worried about their EU gravy train hitting the buffers than tory tax haven billionaires
Everybody bangs on about the red bus the remain campaign didn't have anything positive to put on their bus. Vote to stay in the The blatantly corrupt EU wouldn't be a good selling point
Exactly who does hold all the cards there are far too many meddlers trying to influence the final outcome with credit agencies, money markets, MP's, MEP's, other government leaders, business men and women and many more all pontificating on the situation in order to protect their position or more likely make money
Parts of Europe have long had a not so hidden agenda that has been ongoing for many years to takeover and rule Europe unfortunately the brexit vote has put a bit of a spanner in the works
After Cameron's headless chicken negotiations for a deal and the all but immediate rebuttle of it by various EU leaders I think it really shows it's arrogant stance to any negotiation as it goes against their overall agenda
When it comes to the money side of it we know what we are paying now but with the EU's
I don't see how walking away from the negotiations will do any good. Leaving aside the childish quotes like 'they don't like it up them' or 'take the soft gloves off' whats the point?
We will be leaving the EU in March 2019 agreement or not. A good compromise agreement between both sides will greatly benefit both the UK and the EU, what would you think if the EU walked away from negotiations? or more to the point what do you think the Express or Mail would splash across the front page.
I don't see how we can have anything other a very hard brexit and it will be bad for the UK, but there you go, that's what was voted for. But if we do not finalize our contractual obligations it will make it very dificult to do deals with other countries when we're out.
Oh! and I put 'Let's fund our NHS instead' into Google translate and it does come up with 'decide where we spend the money' So it seems I was wrong. I do feel silly.
We will be leaving the EU in March 2019 agreement or not. A good compromise agreement between both sides will greatly benefit both the UK and the EU, what would you think if the EU walked away from negotiations? or more to the point what do you think the Express or Mail would splash across the front page.
I don't see how we can have anything other a very hard brexit and it will be bad for the UK, but there you go, that's what was voted for. But if we do not finalize our contractual obligations it will make it very dificult to do deals with other countries when we're out.
Oh! and I put 'Let's fund our NHS instead' into Google translate and it does come up with 'decide where we spend the money' So it seems I was wrong. I do feel silly.
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