Plant Pot Brigade!

[andrew692003]

Does anyone want to join?

As I've stated before I have never used these between floors or in any new builds so don't get out the sniper rifles straight away!

The only time I have used clay pots has been in lofts where access isn't a problem and usually in older dwelling houses. Now, the last time I did this was a good couple of years ago not that that matters as I can't see a problem with it.

When fitting the pots I always make sure that the insulation is clear of the hole and all dust etc has been cleaned away then I fit the pot with the transformer outside lying on top of the insulation. I always push the insulation up against the pot which makes it very steady.

At the end of the day all you are trying to achieve is to stop debris falling on the lamp and letting the heat dissipitate to possibly stop causing fire so, does it matter whether you use a firehood, plasterboard box or a bloody clay plant pot?

Firehoods can be expensive and a PIA to fit, Plasterboard boxes take time to build and even the cheapest Firerated fittings can still up the cost considerabaly.

Cheers

 

[cbw]

Are you Bill or Ben?
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I think they work fine!

 

[martysparky]

Regulation section 527 Page 107

SELECTION AND ERECTION OF WIRING SYSTEMS TO MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF FIRE.

How could we be sure FLOWER POTS meet these requirements?

Also, Reg: 133 page 18

SELECTION OF ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT

reg, 133.1.1 Every item of equipment shall comply with the appropriate British standard. In the absence of British standard reference shall be made to the appropriate IET standard or appropriate national standard of another country.

reg; 511 COMPLIANCE WITH STANDARDS

?CAN YOU CONFIRM COMPLIANCE?

Has anybody tested the FLOWER POT method or is it just theory?

because if it is not means tested I for sure wouldn't want that empirical test on my installation!

Unless of course it proved effective.

 

[andrew692003]

Is there a reg that actually states you have to use a Firehood or a Protective cover of any kind when fitting downlighters which has a loft space above?

I know a plant pot doesn't have a BS number but either does a box made of plasterboard! All I'm saying is it gives more than adequate cover for the reason you are using it.

If you can find a Reg Marty that would be helpful, I'll have a look tomorrow!

Cheers

 

[martysparky]

Part P states in the MATERIALS ANS WORKMANSHIP section

....Any building work....In accordance of regulation 7...show compliance...appropriate use of product bearing markings in accordance with the construction products directive.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

Plasterboard is a commonly used means tested and regulated product to BS and is advised to be used a fire retardant lining to timber by the ESC, however, I've not seen them suggest to use a plasterboard box as a fire hood but i have for ventilation routes via the ceiling void.

Maybe you should contact the IET direct and ask them there view.

Innovation is a great thing but a prison cell would not be so great if a Flower pot put you there!
Is saving the customer a few quid worth that?

I would love to see a guide book state use flower pots but I don't think its going to happen.

Is the handle turning enough!..

 

[GaryM]

Have a read of this link

 

[yido81]

well, the way i look at it is that if i was to use plant on an installation, then go home after the job is complete!! whats to stop the customer going up in there loft and having a route about and braking one of the pots by mistake and not realising it, then later theres a fire in the house. fire brigade investigate and say the fire would not have spread to the loft then to other houses and killed matey next door, becuase of the pots being used!! and we know that in plenty of old terrace house theres a lack of good partition between them in the loft!! so i think for the sake of an extra couple of quid, its worth putting fire rated fittings in!! what do other people think??

 

[andrew692003]

Cheers Gary I read that link before but I've read it again.

Quote:

Downlighters in ceilings under roof spaces

However, in situations where downlighters are installed in ceilings under roof spaces, where debris or thermal insulation may accumulate on top of the luminaire, a case could be made for building a plasterboard or metal box around the luminaire or installing a fire hood. When boxing in a luminaire, in the absence of any manufacturers’ guidance, a gap of about 100mm around the luminaire and 75mm above is recommended to allow for heat dissipation.

As I've said I have only installed these in private housing which are usually detached but you do raise a good point there Yido but whats to stop someone knocking over a firehood or a plasterboard box in the same situation? Nothing I would guess.

I also realise that clay pots don't have a BS number but does a plasterboard box made by you or I have a BS number? The materials may do but the workmanship may not!

At the end of the dayIMO its all about common sense and good erection methods, all you are looking for is something that gives you protection against debris falling on the lamp if you were worried about the spread of fire you wouldn't use downlighters at all.

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone here just liking the healthy debate!

Cheers

 

[roukel01]

Regulation section 527 Page 107

SELECTION AND ERECTION OF WIRING SYSTEMS TO MINIMIZE THE SPREAD OF FIRE.

How could we be sure FLOWER POTS meet these requirements?

Also, Reg: 133 page 18

SELECTION OF ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT

reg, 133.1.1 Every item of equipment shall comply with the appropriate British standard. In the absence of British standard reference shall be made to the appropriate IET standard or appropriate national standard of another country.

reg; 511 COMPLIANCE WITH STANDARDS

?CAN YOU CONFIRM COMPLIANCE?

Has anybody tested the FLOWER POT method or is it just theory?

because if it is not means tested I for sure wouldn't want that empirical test on my installation!

Unless of course it proved effective.

Flower Pots are kiln Fired just as the bricks that the house is built with are. I'm sure they're fine. At the end of the day, fire hoods are placed on downlights that are NOT fire rated to prevent the spread of fire, the Plant Pot is used to give the Minimum clearance Manufacturers state the fitting needs to stop them from overheating, nothing else. The Pot is NOT to stop the spread of fire.

 

[martysparky]

Flower Pots are kiln Fired just as the bricks that the house is built with are. I'm sure they're fine. At the end of the day, fire hoods are placed on downlights that are NOT fire rated to prevent the spread of fire, the Plant Pot is used to give the Minimum clearance Manufacturers state the fitting needs to stop them from overheating, nothing else. The Pot is NOT to stop the spread of fire.

if its not to stop the spread of fire what is?

The building is designed without holes and given a fire rating. So, if you cut a hole and add a non fire rated light the building will then burn more quickly than without the holes.

If you add a hole between to compartments that hole is linking the compartments is it not?

If your bedroom was above the kitchen and you had a teenager come home drunk and started a fire in the kitchen would you prefer the holes not be there? would you prefer it to be treated as two different compartments.

If so, would you prefer means tested fire rated equipment in the ceiling to help prevent the roof collapsing whilst you making your escape or waiting for the fire brigade.

Or I know, lets take a chance on FLOWER POTS coz they might work.

If it is a fire safety reason to employ fire rated expandable foam in holes to seal the holes made to pass a cable fire spread is a serious matter. The people who employ you generally don't realize that holes for downlighters are a fire risk they just want what they want and employ and put there trust in you to install. They may want a cheap solution and pay less at the time but if the house burnt they would prob be on your back with vengeance .

furthermore, If the police heard you had lights and flowerpots in your roof they they' d prob be round.

simple- no hole = less fire spread
with hole = more fire spread

If debris fell on a flower pot would it smash?
If debris fell on a Fire hood would it smash? or, would it flatten over the hole?

What one would you bet your life on.

just my thoughts

 

[roukel01]

if its not to stop the spread of fire what is?

The building is designed without holes and given a fire rating. So, if you cut a hole and add a non fire rated light the building will then burn more quickly than without the holes.

If you add a hole between to compartments that hole is linking the compartments is it not?

If your bedroom was above the kitchen and you had a teenager come home drunk and started a fire in the kitchen would you prefer the holes not be there? would you prefer it to be treated as two different compartments.

If so, would you prefer means tested fire rated equipment in the ceiling to help prevent the roof collapsing whilst you making your escape or waiting for the fire brigade.

Or I know, lets take a chance on FLOWER POTS coz they might work.

If it is a fire safety reason to employ fire rated expandable foam in holes to seal the holes made to pass a cable fire spread is a serious matter. The people who employ you generally don't realize that holes for downlighters are a fire risk they just want what they want and employ and put there trust in you to install. They may want a cheap solution and pay less at the time but if the house burnt they would prob be on your back with vengeance .

furthermore, If the police heard you had lights and flowerpots in your roof they they' d prob be round.

simple- no hole = less fire spread
with hole = more fire spread

If debris fell on a flower pot would it smash?
If debris fell on a Fire hood would it smash? or, would it flatten over the hole?

What one would you bet your life on.

just my thoughts

Please read my post carefully, I said, Plantpots should b e used only for giving minimum clearance from insulation with fire rated fittings and nothing else.

Anyone daft enough to use pots with fittings that are not fire rated want their heads read, besides who the hell fits non-fire rated fittings these days?

Any debris that you are describing heavy enough and falling with enough force to smash a plant pot is going to break most things you place over a light.

 

[GaryM]

....besides who the hell fits non-fire rated fittings these days?

They still move off the shelves so plenty of people I guess.

 

[roukel01]

They still move off the shelves so plenty of people I guess.

Well they shouldn't Thats a blatent case of penny pinching.

 

[GaryM]

When installed correctly with aluminium reflector lamps (assuming LED or CFL's haven't been used) they don't pose a great danger.

 

[bugsy]

offical member!

 

[martysparky]

Please read my post carefully, I said, Plantpots should b e used only for giving minimum clearance from insulation with fire rated fittings and nothing else.

Anyone daft enough to use pots with fittings that are not fire rated want their heads read, besides who the hell fits non-fire rated fittings these days?

Any debris that you are describing heavy enough and falling with enough force to smash a plant pot is going to break most things you place over a light.

hey, I did read it carefully, it said- 'fire hoods are placed on downlights that are NOT fire rated to prevent the spread of fire, the Plant Pot is used to give the Minimum clearance Manufacturers state'.

Accidents happen and safetry is no accident!

offical member!

That plastic one would give clearance if thats all its used for.lol

 

[pennywise]

What brand of pot would you suggest.

 

[roukel01]

Accidents happen and safetry is no accident!

The risk would be minimal, I'm affraid I don't buy your argument, and I still think a pot is a sufficient barrier to prevent anything from comprimising a fitting. Oh and so did my assesor last year.

 

[GaryM]

Oh and so did my assesor last year.

They don't always get it right. We had one who wanted an RSJ bonded which was been installed for support in a domestic. He saw the light when I asked him how on earth could it be extraneous!

 

[martysparky]

The risk would be minimal, I'm affraid I don't buy your argument, and I still think a pot is a sufficient barrier to prevent anything from comprimising a fitting. Oh and so did my assesor last year.

well, if thats true about the assessor, well done for it. It still defies the regs though and I still wouldn't do it.
but I don't know as much about that as you as I've never done it and would only follow the regs.

Was it done in a domestic?

good luck.

Regards.

 

[roukel01]

well, if thats true about the assessor, well done for it. It still defies the regs though and I still wouldn't do it.
but I don't know as much about that as you as I've never done it and would only follow the regs.

Was it done in a domestic?

good luck.

Regards.

I'm still unsure why it doesn't follow the regs when you are only using it as a barrier. The regs usually state that the manufacturers instructions are folowed when installing their equipment, if you are using fire rated lights, stopping the spread of fire is achieved through the fitting and you're not relying on anything else you put over the fitting. A plant pot is still tough enough to withstand any impact that can reasonably be expected to fall on it. the fire hoods and caps I've ever seen are quite flimsy and the two for a £5 pots I've used are far tougher!

 

[Smugley]

Can't wait for downlights to go out of fashion.

 

[roukel01]

Can't wait for downlights to go out of fashion.

Same here mate, I try not to fit them. Don't mind them in Kitchens but you get a load of shadows! Bathrooms are ok too I suppose. I look after a few rental properties where they are in every room. Horrible.

 

[Notsosmart]

Dare I say it?.... I can't resist:
Hot debate, but don't get so fired up!

I will only add that within a domestic property the fire compartment is deemed as;

"Walls that separate semi-detached houses or terraced houses are constructed as fire compartment walls and the houses are considered as separate buildings"
​

The area within the whole of the house is the compartment, with no seperate fire compartments between floors ~ Only flats have seperate compartments between floors.

With regards to a downlight within a kitchen ceiling;

"These results were, perhaps, surprising in that they confirmed that downlighters, even without being boxed in and with no fire hoods, in plasterboard ceilings have little significant effect on fire resistance ratings up to 30 minutes. It must be inferred from these tests therefore, that, at least with plasterboard ceilings with
conventional rectangular joists, it is not necessary to ‘box in’ luminaries or to use fire hoods for the purpose of restoring the fire resistance capability of ceilings which are not of fire compartment construction."​

 

[martysparky]

Dare I say it?.... I can't resist:
Hot debate, but don't get so fired up!

I will only add that within a domestic property the fire compartment is deemed as;

"Walls that separate semi-detached houses or terraced houses are constructed as fire compartment walls and the houses are considered as separate buildings"
​

The area within the whole of the house is the compartment, with no seperate fire compartments between floors ~ Only flats have seperate compartments between floors.

With regards to a downlight within a kitchen ceiling;

"These results were, perhaps, surprising in that they confirmed that downlighters, even without being boxed in and with no fire hoods, in plasterboard ceilings have little significant effect on fire resistance ratings up to 30 minutes. It must be inferred from these tests therefore, that, at least with plasterboard ceilings with
conventional rectangular joists, it is not necessary to ‘box in’ luminaries or to use fire hoods for the purpose of restoring the fire resistance capability of ceilings which are not of fire compartment construction."​

Brilliant! loving that. especially the 'Don't get so fired up' bit.

To keep the cost a little lower to get more work lets lower our standards.

I guess because we can lets throw caution to the wind and let the wind fuel the fire and let the house burn more quickly.

Come on any fool can recognize that a piece of timber will catch fire more quickly if it is not protected by a barrier. we might as well not have internal walls and then we could see and smell the fire more quickly. ( less timber to protect too)

You only got to think in the event of a possible fire would I prefer to be asleep in a compartment that has a good level of fire protection or would you prefer when the alarm wakes you up to be facing bare flames in-hailing the smoke.

Prob is we all take houses for granted and feel safe in them.

My, 1 level cottage is open plan by the way. Bedroom separated by stone wall! SAFE

I guess then in that case, it is up to the installer to choose there own way of looking at things and standard of workmanship.

I endeavor to make safety a priority because safety is no accident

whoops, ah, my leg, bang!

 

[Notsosmart]

Ouch..well i guess that told me,
I thought I was just clarifying a few points but I suppose I should just creep back under the dark damp place I crawled out from....
Maybe a plant pot!

 

[pennywise]

These could double up as good planters I suppose


Buy Aurora AU-DIG340 GALVANISED STEEL DOWNLIGHT INSULATION GUARD LIGHTING ACCESSORY Kent Lighting

 

[Notsosmart]

Your just not taking this seriously

 

[andrew692003]

No, Notsosmart you posted good points too!

There's nothing wrong with my standard of work, when a customer wants downlighters in a roof space thats for him to decide not me, the regs don't state you have to use firerated or hoods in certain situations as Notsosmart has pointed out. If I decide that a Clay pot is a sufficient barrier to stop debris hitting the lamp I will use it. If the floor below is burning away nicely do you really think that by the time the fire has spread to the upper level the loft is really going to be worth saving?

A clay pot is for stopping debris not to stop a fire!

Cheers

These could double up as good planters I suppose


Buy Aurora AU-DIG340 GALVANISED STEEL DOWNLIGHT INSULATION GUARD LIGHTING ACCESSORY Kent Lighting

Does the same job as a Clay pot but 8 times the price! Good post tho. I feel the tide could be turning my way on this one.

Cheers

 

[martysparky]

Ouch..well i guess that told me,
I thought I was just clarifying a few points but I suppose I should just creep back under the dark damp place I crawled out from....
Maybe a plant pot!

Hey, not at all. good points.

My points not aimed directly at you or anyone really.

just my thoughts.

Entertaining and interesting really

No, Notsosmart you posted good points too!

There's nothing wrong with my standard of work, when a customer wants downlighters in a roof space thats for him to decide not me, the regs don't state you have to use firerated or hoods in certain situations as Notsosmart has pointed out. If I decide that a Clay pot is a sufficient barrier to stop debris hitting the lamp I will use it. If the floor below is burning away nicely do you really think that by the time the fire has spread to the upper level the loft is really going to be worth saving?

A clay pot is for stopping debris not to stop a fire!

Cheers



Does the same job as a Clay pot but 8 times the price! Good post tho. I feel the tide could be turning my way on this one.

Cheers

What debris are you classifying to be reasonably expected? What if lets say a cot or a bike or a old TV falls on the clay pot.....Hmmm....It smashes... maybe...probably...
Are these thing reasonably expected to be stored in a loft or will you tell the home owner, your customer, different.

At least the metal or plasterboard ones will flatten to a point and still stay in tact to a degree too and still provide protection a clay pot on the other hand will shatter in to bits.

When the customer rings you up and said your work has broken because something fell on it, what are you going to say...well you chose to have downlighters not me...he/she replies... you installed them and the silly pots...Didn't you think of that...itn't electrical work regulated...well those clay pot are not electrical...well your an electrician and you put them there....blah...blahhh.blahhhhh!!! ya..my...and the ...leg off...

What if they don't even notice the pot is in bits under or masked by the insulation. what if the pot damages the cable when broken.. then you would have caused the fire because you put them there...

Whoops, smash, burn away. Safety is no Accident!

Its not about saving the loft its about saving lives

I.e. escape time...................

Do all your clay pots ring? You know like the antique guys do the ring test...
God knows how many times I've bought clay pots for the garden and they have broke just from picking them up or filling them.

 

[bugsy]

offical member!

but i'll only use them in the garden!

Dare I say it?.... I can't resist:
Hot debate, but don't get so fired up!

I will only add that within a domestic property the fire compartment is deemed as;

"Walls that separate semi-detached houses or terraced houses are constructed as fire compartment walls and the houses are considered as separate buildings"​

The area within the whole of the house is the compartment, with no seperate fire compartments between floors ~ Only flats have seperate compartments between floors.

With regards to a downlight within a kitchen ceiling;

"These results were, perhaps, surprising in that they confirmed that downlighters, even without being boxed in and with no fire hoods, in plasterboard ceilings have little significant effect on fire resistance ratings up to 30 minutes. It must be inferred from these tests therefore, that, at least with plasterboard ceilings with
conventional rectangular joists, it is not necessary to ‘box in’ luminaries or to use fire hoods for the purpose of restoring the fire resistance capability of ceilings which are not of fire compartment construction."​

"********"

 

[roukel01]

What debris are you classifying to be reasonably expected? What if lets say a cot or a bike or a old TV falls on the clay pot.....Hmmm....It smashes... maybe...probably...
Are these thing reasonably expected to be stored in a loft or will you tell the home owner, your customer, different.
.

You're getting propper wound up by this one aren't you?? Made me chuckle did this one. If the said Bike or old TV falls, we don't need to worry about my poor plant pots, I'd be more worried about the hole in the ceiling that would make

 

[rocker]

Why have you got such a hard on for the phrase 'safety is no accident'?

And why are you having a pop at people who are quoting directly from regs and case studies as if they are talking balls?

I personally wouldn't use plant pots, basically because I think it would be a pain in the rear end taking up all the floor boarding to place them (usually just take up a few select boards when putting in downlighters). However:

A plantpot is fired in a kiln at temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees. It is likely it WOULD be able to withstand a house fire for some time, even though that is not what these folks are saying it should be used for.

Just yesterday I trod on a fire rated downlighter (I use them every time) and it crushed and was unusable. They aint that tough.

There is NO REGULATION that states you MUST use fire hoods in a house. We use them, well most of us, but we dont have to. That is a fact.

 

[martysparky]

You're getting propper wound up by this one aren't you?? Made me chuckle did this one. If the said Bike or old TV falls, we don't need to worry about my poor plant pots, I'd be more worried about the hole in the ceiling that would make

Laughing my ******** out!!!

 

[pennywise]

Bring the rain

 

[martysparky]

Why have you got such a hard on for the phrase 'safety is no accident'?

And why are you having a pop at people who are quoting directly from regs and case studies as if they are talking balls?

I personally wouldn't use plant pots, basically because I think it would be a pain in the rear end taking up all the floor boarding to place them (usually just take up a few select boards when putting in downlighters). However:

A plantpot is fired in a kiln at temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees. It is likely it WOULD be able to withstand a house fire for some time, even though that is not what these folks are saying it should be used for.

Just yesterday I trod on a fire rated downlighter (I use them every time) and it crushed and was unusable. They aint that tough.

There is NO REGULATION that states you MUST use fire hoods in a house. We use them, well most of us, but we dont have to. That is a fact.

I work for SSE Safety is no Accident is there phrase and it get drummed into us, habitual I guess, and if I pop which I'm not don't let the sound of the pop frighten you if it does then its probably doubt.

Just a debate please don't be offended

All interesting stuff just my thoughts on the matter.

Ps. If I use the word YOU it does not mean you literally it is for whoever reads it.

 

[Notsosmart]

[QUOTE********[/QUOTE]

Yours or a pair?

 

[martysparky]

I can hear the judge saying the words very boldly.

Albeit you thought clay pots would be OK but you have failed to reasonably consider all the safety issues and cut corners and cost for self gain.

Is that reasonable?

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I'm gonna get some that have the holes in the bottom...........let the heat out and give a bit of light in the loft as well wont need loft insulation either

 

[roukel01]

I can hear the judge saying the words very boldly.

Albeit you thought clay pots would be OK but you have failed to reasonably consider all the safety issues and cut corners and cost for self gain.

Is that reasonable?

It wouldn't happen I'm afraid. You've been reading too many Health and Safety Books, perhaps your concerns could be put to better use and you could retrain these customers to store their unwanted items in a more convenient and safe place, and allow me to continue using my trusty Pots to protect the fittings.