An independent would give a balanced argument so you fail on that point
As for facts I suggest you take some of your own advice and read up and look a bit deeper into the issues
- Thread starter Octopus
- Start date
-
- Tags
- don't
An independent would give a balanced argument so you fail on that point
As for facts I suggest you take some of your own advice and read up and look a bit deeper into the issues
So Wales gets less than Scotland and Northern Ireland gets more and who whinges the loudest?
Shows how deaf the Scots have become
As are your posts little fact and little substance by an independent nationalist if there is such a thing
I for one would have given Scotland independence if only to stop the incessant bickering and whinging from north of the border
The problem is that Salmond/ Sturgeon partnership wanted a pseudo independence that would be under the terms dictated by the SNP to the rest of the UK and also had some misguided assumption that they had some clout with the EU and the rest of the world
I would suggest if you want real views get out and about and see what people in other countries think not just the UK
Last edited:
Y
YoungScud
Off the top of my head, The Scottish Greens, SSP, Solidarity, Not to mention other bodies and individuals, for example, The Independence Commission, a multi-partisan grouping set up to "Firstly, to create a forum for those of all political persuasions and none who support independence; and secondly, to be a national catalyst for Scottish independence."[SUP][[/SUP] Then there were National Collective, a group of pro-independence artists, Radical Independence Campaign, a group further to the left than the mainstream of independence supporters. There was also Business for Scotland, whose name tells you all you need to know. On top of that, there grew a Consititutional Convention, whose main aim was to draft and champion a wirtten constitution, which for me can be no bad thing. It was envisaged as a unicameral democracy, not a republic as one ignoramus has stated so far. In fact, although there was a definite republican element within the supporters of independence, it was a relatively small faction and keeping the Queen as head of state was always likely to be the preferred option, at least in the medium term. What really characterised the campaign for me, though, the thing which swayed me from being anti- (yes folks) to pro-independence was the adult fashion in which the SNP had learned to conduct itself. I had previously viewed them as disruptive, not without cause, but Alex salmond's second term as leader transformed them into a party which the people decided they could trust. Having served one hair raising term in minoirty government. they were then elected outright and have served ever since.
Now, the referendum campaign, to the neutral, must have looked as if nobody believed that Scotland could manage its own affairs. "Too small, too poor, too stupid" became the battle cry of Bitter Together. The media, with only one singular exeception (Sunday Herald) adopted the BT party line, and thsi includes BBC Scotland. At the last minute, Brown managed to persuade the leaders of the major parties to cobble together The Vow, which may or may not have swayed the vote. Who knows? What I do know is this; for the first time in my life, I was involved in a political campaign which felt right. We went from, a few months before the referendum, being 20 and more points behind in the polls to, with very little time left, a slender lead in a couple of them. In the end, the margin was narrow, but we attempted, having dried the tears to accept the defeat with grace. There was a sting in the Unionist tail though. A peaceful celebration of having taken part in something good was hijacked by unionist thugs wielding EDL, SDL, National Front, BNP, Orange Lodge, Rangers FC and other regalia. Two young women were beaten and their Saltire taken and burnt. Gays, Scots, anyone who didn't fit their hateful profile were attacked and beaten, flares thrown and passers-by terrorised. Still, the next day, Alex salmond did the right thing in his usual dignified manner and Scotland moved on.
Moving on, though, does not mean the dream died. Mine never will. If id doesn't happen during my lifetime, my sons won't stop working towards independence, and they have every right so to do, and none of you have any right to say otherwise, at least not if you want to go on keeping up the pretence of democracy.
Y
YoungScud
I give you the OP. Neither Sean nor I started this thread.
"From the BBC
"New "English votes for English laws" rules have been implemented in the House of Commons for the first time.Conservative MPs cheered as English and Welsh members prepared to give their consent to parts of the Housing and Planning Bill that only apply to their constituencies.
Housing Minister Brandon Lewis said he was "very proud" to be implementing the reforms.
But the SNP said the changes were "driving Scotland out of the door".
I really don't get the SNP.
Tony Blair only got the initial tuition charges through for English and Welsh students with the votes of the Scottish Labour MP's - and with this bill anyone from the EU can study in Scotland for free EXCEPT the English and Welsh.
And the SNP have gone VERY quiet about independence since the crash in the oil price!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35295404 "
So a bunch of very very small minority parties driven by the thought that they would get some recognition if the independence vote won the day
The SNP have only become what they are peddling a dream that appeals to a number of Scottish people the sooner they deliver the better
Not a chance of that ever happening
So you will continue to brow beat people. May be the manifesto should be "We will continue to vote on independence until the electorate gets it right"
Not really into politics as they are all a bunch of liars, but can someone just explain to me what all the hassle is about. It just sounds like a young couple arguing cause one of them wants to break up and the other is saying that they will never meet anyone as good as them again......
If Scotland wants to be independent then what's the problem? I have never understood the dislike between England and Scotland. It's mainly about football, when you hear the Scottish wanting anyone but the English to win and the English wanting anyone but the Scottish to win. Both groups need a good smack....
If Scotland wants to be independent then what's the problem? I have never understood the dislike between England and Scotland. It's mainly about football, when you hear the Scottish wanting anyone but the English to win and the English wanting anyone but the Scottish to win. Both groups need a good smack....
M
malcolmsanford
Do I detect a little anti English feeling here Sean old son
Moving on, though, does not mean the dream died. Mine never will. If id doesn't happen during my lifetime, my sons won't stop working towards independence, and they have every right so to do, and none of you have any right to say otherwise, at least not if you want to go on keeping up the pretence of democracy.
How many referendums do you think it will take to get what you want and at what cost
M
malcolmsanford
Scud welcome back son missed you.
Wow we have now brought Sectarianism into it...............whew we have moved on here
I take your the Green side of the force son
Wow we have now brought Sectarianism into it...............whew we have moved on here
I take your the Green side of the force son
Nope, none whatsoever - I'm married to one.
That's a rich coming from someone who introduced Andy Murray and Longshanks into the thread, and both in the same post !
The dislike is between Scotland and England and it is not just football that causes the animosity from the north
Y
YoungScud
Thanks for the welcome Malcolm. I'm not sure at which stage I introduced sectarianism. I'm going to take a stab and guess you're referring to the Rangers gear. Nothing to do with sectarianism, at least not for me. No, it was more about what I personally witnessed in George Square and Buchanan St. I don't know how much you know about the small handful of Rangers supporters who are still sectarian, but they're dwindling,which is to be expected of those not at the top of the intellectual tree. Nevertheless, the sky blue was well represented that night. Given your average thug's knowledge of history, a loose grasp of who King Billy was and what his role in British history was, it's not shocking.
Edit: Oh, and yes, I'm probably on the green side, or rather the Greens side. I actually do have a fondness for the Scottish Greens. Before you say anything, yes I did get the reference, but it's frankly a silly assumption. Not being a Rangers fan, apparently surprisingly, doesn't make you a Celtic supporter. If I had to pick a team, it'd be Beith Juniors until the day I die, but I'm really a rugby fan. Don't have much time for football.
Last edited by a moderator:
And its the same with the Welsh, the Irish, and the bloke that keeps parking in your parking space, your neighbours whose trees hang over your fence, the world is full of petty animosity.
haha True mate.
I know this thread never started out about Scottish Independence, but it seems it has gone that way.
'On 18 September 2014 the Scottish independence referendum took place and Scotland voted to stay part of the United Kingdom. Voters in Scotland were asked to answer Yes or No to the question “Should Scotland be an independent country?” 55.3% voted No and 44.7% voted Yes. 84.6% of the electorate participated in this historic vote to decide Scotland’s future'. (gov.uk).
2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 voted for (44.7%)(wikipedia).
If the remaining 15.4% had voted 'Yes', then the 'Yes' campaign would have won by 4.8% (think my maths is right).
I suppose you could say that the vote was close, but the majority voted 'No'. So that's that then, or do you keep having a vote on something until you get the result you want? Next year, next parliament or 41 years time, like the EU debate.
Whats more to be said? The referendums been held and the result received.
The North hate the South, which has been going on for centuries, and that's in England
So perhaps we should try and get on. The majority have spoken.
'On 18 September 2014 the Scottish independence referendum took place and Scotland voted to stay part of the United Kingdom. Voters in Scotland were asked to answer Yes or No to the question “Should Scotland be an independent country?” 55.3% voted No and 44.7% voted Yes. 84.6% of the electorate participated in this historic vote to decide Scotland’s future'. (gov.uk).
2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 voted for (44.7%)(wikipedia).
If the remaining 15.4% had voted 'Yes', then the 'Yes' campaign would have won by 4.8% (think my maths is right).
I suppose you could say that the vote was close, but the majority voted 'No'. So that's that then, or do you keep having a vote on something until you get the result you want? Next year, next parliament or 41 years time, like the EU debate.
Whats more to be said? The referendums been held and the result received.
The North hate the South, which has been going on for centuries, and that's in England
So perhaps we should try and get on. The majority have spoken.
O
Octopus
Because those countries don't have politicians who spend all their time talking about how the Westminster Parliament ruin their countries!
Yes of course, its only the Scots who dare raise their voices - or perhaps it's just another case of selective deafness.
Maybe it's like having rumpy pumpy with the missus, you keep asking until finally she says Yes.........
If that was the case, Scotland would never have independence!Maybe it's like having rumpy pumpy with the missus, you keep asking until finally she says Yes.........
O
Octopus
Now you are being stupid or should I say Scottish!
in reality the Welsh and NI governments are more constructive.........
M
malcolmsanford
Hmmm that seems to be a rather disparaging remark there Sean old son. That is a rather formal pronoun to use...........perhaps you may need to talk over this issue with someone
I'm listening..............
I realise all you are doing now is trying to keep a thread that peaked a good while back alive with such comments, try not prolong the agony to long.
O
Octopus
er no. Really busy at the moment so only get a real chance to chip in when I get home.......
So are you in favour of the UK scrapping the barnet formula?
M
malcolmsanford
And by answering you lessening the agony..........you do seem to be a paradox..........wow I never had to google that either
O
Octopus
So you are in favour of scrapping the barnett formula then.....
G
GMES
That would be me being a Member of staff, My name is clearly visible on the Deletion.
You repeated word for word the same reply, next time maybe use the multi qoute function.
Your name was only evident when, after blocking a number of pop-up messages (which I assume would also have shown your name) I noticed a PM.
By which time I'd already posted my comment - my now deleted comment could also have been posted in response to #114.
I'll give your multi quote suggestion a go in an hour or two, as long as Murdoch is aware that the lack of an instant response from me isnt a sign that I'm in agreement with him.
:tounge_smile:
D
Dcf
Jeez!im feeling the better together love tonight.
as a supporter of no particular party it seems to me that uk politics is in a bit of a bind.
the conservative governments have never been fond of the man in the street.
it took a strong opposition which was traditionally labour to keep them in check.
labour are weaker than ever with no policies of any substance and a leader who inspires no confidence.
the lib dems are not even in sight.
that leaves the snp .
they at least try to agitate the government and give them a hard time
this is what an opposition should do ,but the media are making it out to be a Scotland vs England issue at every turn.
when the work started on the new forth crossing all the media talk was of salmonds vanity project blah blah.
when the existing forth bridge was closed to traffic over Xmas as it needed urgent repairs it was all talk of the snp cutting the budget, they knew it was dodgy and why is the new one not ready!
you can't win.
as a supporter of no particular party it seems to me that uk politics is in a bit of a bind.
the conservative governments have never been fond of the man in the street.
it took a strong opposition which was traditionally labour to keep them in check.
labour are weaker than ever with no policies of any substance and a leader who inspires no confidence.
the lib dems are not even in sight.
that leaves the snp .
they at least try to agitate the government and give them a hard time
this is what an opposition should do ,but the media are making it out to be a Scotland vs England issue at every turn.
when the work started on the new forth crossing all the media talk was of salmonds vanity project blah blah.
when the existing forth bridge was closed to traffic over Xmas as it needed urgent repairs it was all talk of the snp cutting the budget, they knew it was dodgy and why is the new one not ready!
you can't win.
J
janner43
It's clear by now that those who follow an emotional rationale are neither fact based nor do they have a broad view. They are blinkered and myopic.
Rather than bring out more numbers, I think it might be illuminating to hear from an outsider. Someone with clear views who is neither English or Scottish.
Let's hear what Sir Bob Geldof has to say...
Geldof believes separation goes against the grain of the age we live in.
He said: “The logic of the 21st century and immediate future is towards co-operation, consensus and compromise, as opposed to the past and the murderous 20th century which was defined by competition. Why retreat into the past? Why regress to an imagined national idyll? It won’t happen.
“What interest does the world have in Scotland or England unilaterally? The nation state is dead. The 21st century is about interdependence.”
Geldof understands national pride , but has a warning when politicians start using it for their own ends.
He said: “It’s a very healthy sense to understand who you are as a people and your place in this world. That’s a normal human instinct. We have a word for it – it’s called patriotism. But when it’s manipulated into the base metal of politics, which is nationalism – when political people on both sides of the argument do that – you have to be very wary. You really must think through these things.
“Nationalism is a very dangerous political animal. I know this – I’m Irish. It’s a cheap political trick which twists the understanding of who we are.
“I completely understand the emotional impulse towards independence. But always consider independence in inverted commas because what the f*** does it mean?
“We are entirely dependent on one another. None of us, in our private lives or our political constructs, are ever independent.
“We are all sovereign unto ourselves but we’re dependent on one another"
He is aware there are people with Irish roots thinking of voting Yes in the belief it might help lead to a United Ireland. But he urges them to reconsider.
He said: “There’s going to be an independent Scotland and a united Ireland and it will all be great?
“What will be great about it? Please explain that to me. Do you have any less pride in being Scottish or Irish than you will have next week? Seriously?
“It’s the manipulation of that pride and spurious arguments like that which drives me nuts.”
Geldof admires Alex Salmond as one of the most talented politicians in the country, but dislikes his sloganising.
He said, ‘Our time is now’ – what the f*** does that mean? The time is any time.”
And Geldof believes the best future for Scotland, in the modern world, is to remain in the UK.
He said: “It’s only together, with a single shared sense of purpose, that we get to do things in the 21st century. There’s plenty to be done. Let’s get on and do it together."
Rather than bring out more numbers, I think it might be illuminating to hear from an outsider. Someone with clear views who is neither English or Scottish.
Let's hear what Sir Bob Geldof has to say...
Geldof believes separation goes against the grain of the age we live in.
He said: “The logic of the 21st century and immediate future is towards co-operation, consensus and compromise, as opposed to the past and the murderous 20th century which was defined by competition. Why retreat into the past? Why regress to an imagined national idyll? It won’t happen.
“What interest does the world have in Scotland or England unilaterally? The nation state is dead. The 21st century is about interdependence.”
Geldof understands national pride , but has a warning when politicians start using it for their own ends.
He said: “It’s a very healthy sense to understand who you are as a people and your place in this world. That’s a normal human instinct. We have a word for it – it’s called patriotism. But when it’s manipulated into the base metal of politics, which is nationalism – when political people on both sides of the argument do that – you have to be very wary. You really must think through these things.
“Nationalism is a very dangerous political animal. I know this – I’m Irish. It’s a cheap political trick which twists the understanding of who we are.
“I completely understand the emotional impulse towards independence. But always consider independence in inverted commas because what the f*** does it mean?
“We are entirely dependent on one another. None of us, in our private lives or our political constructs, are ever independent.
“We are all sovereign unto ourselves but we’re dependent on one another"
He is aware there are people with Irish roots thinking of voting Yes in the belief it might help lead to a United Ireland. But he urges them to reconsider.
He said: “There’s going to be an independent Scotland and a united Ireland and it will all be great?
“What will be great about it? Please explain that to me. Do you have any less pride in being Scottish or Irish than you will have next week? Seriously?
“It’s the manipulation of that pride and spurious arguments like that which drives me nuts.”
Geldof admires Alex Salmond as one of the most talented politicians in the country, but dislikes his sloganising.
He said, ‘Our time is now’ – what the f*** does that mean? The time is any time.”
And Geldof believes the best future for Scotland, in the modern world, is to remain in the UK.
He said: “It’s only together, with a single shared sense of purpose, that we get to do things in the 21st century. There’s plenty to be done. Let’s get on and do it together."
Y
YoungScud
Here's the problem I have with that. Geldof, as anyone knows, is never short of an opinion, and loves to voice it. What he implies, deliberately or otherwise, as do some fooolish people here and elsewhere, is that to want independence, to espouse civic nationalism, is a thoughtless act, that the entire populace simply goes along with what they're told by politicians, while he, the sage on, knows better. Well, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent man, and one perfectly capable of independent thought. I don't feel I need to run to Geldof, nor to Cameron, nor indeed to Nicola Sturgeon to be given my opinions. My drift towards support of independence has been a long, tortuous journey, not oen I arrived at easily. It was born, not only from an unease about the nature of UK politics, but of a lifelong interest in how things go elsewhere. I've observed, for instance, that, while small countries are not guaranteed stable, happy government, that virtually all of the nations which I admire, whose populations seem to be the most content, are invariably those with small populations. For what it's worth, it seems to me this might be because it's so difficult to arrive at any meaningful agreement very often when a nation has a large population. Of course, there are ways to create a sort of stability in large populations, but my guess is not many here will want to use the Chinese model. One thing that people in Scotland realised through the referendum process is that they could make a difference, whereas at UK level, there's much more of a feeling of lack of control. So, thanks Bob, for your wise words, but how about we agree to disagree?
To save a separate post, I'd like to answer some of the less well-thought out jibes bandied around while I'm at it. First of all, to the moronic suggestion that the rest of the Uk should have taken part in the referendum, not only did every mainstream party band together to persuade the Scottish electorate to say No, but so did the media en masse. If I'd believed for one minute that there would have been a Yes result, I might well have found myself taking the wrong, but pragmatic view that that should happen. Why wrong? Well, has there been a single case in history of a nation exercising its right to self determination (note the word 'self') while involving another nation in the decision? For the sake of clarity, constitutionally, the UK is not a nation. Scotland and England are both sovereign nations in their own right. The UK is a state. So, that was a non-starter for many good reasons.
Finally, you can portray any future intention by an elected Scottish government as keeping voting until we get the right result if you want, but that smacks of tabloid thinking. If we are to maintain any pretence of democracy, we have to accept that people change, and that a future Scottish government, given a mandate, has every legal and constitutional right to hold another referendum. The responsibility of any government is to represent its people, to try to gauge their will and respond accordingly. Of course, this does not mean that we can expect another referendum within the next few years, but it would be naive to expect that things don't change. For The Vow, for example, it took around twelve hours before Cameron reneged. That sent Gordon Brown into apoplexy because he thought it damaged his credibility. The poor schmuck thought he had some.
Regards
A 'non-city' Scot
OFFICIAL SPONSORS
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
Advert
Thread Information
Thread Tags
- Tags
- don't
Advert
Thread statistics
Advert
TrueNAS JBOD Storage Server
-
-
Understanding TrueNAS JBOD Servers: A Comprehensive Guide- Started by Dan
- Replies: 8
-
