Hi.

Been reading the but around 427.1.7.

Does anyone have any idea on retrospective application?

Is this going to apply to every board change or just adapted to new builds and then as a C3 recommendation for everything else?

Given prices it's going to be a massive cost change on a board swop. Plus, I know for certain I'm going to have space issues with anything over 30 years old here in Fife.

Thoughts?
 
I can see some cases for them, but the cost/benefit looks very poor to me.

They do work on RFC but don't detect an open ring as practically no arcing takes place there as voltage difference is very small, however, they should detect arc faults on appliance cables that are attached that are above the few amps threshold.

But again, where is the evidence for their use? That is a proper analysis of fire (or near fire fault) cases that clearly would have been stopped by an AFDD and not things like lint fires in tumble dryers, etc.
I agree, I know alot of electrical fires are due to faulty white goods, there has been talk that it is in fact the white goods industry are pushing for us to incorporate AFDD to protect plugged in equipment.
It all seems like a box ticking exercise to me, there's no data I'm aware of.
 
I agree, I know alot of electrical fires are due to faulty white goods, there has been talk that it is in fact the white goods industry are pushing for us to incorporate AFDD to protect plugged in equipment.
It all seems like a box ticking exercise to me, there's no data I'm aware of.
Maybe we should be pushing for the white goods industry to stop throwing cheaper & cheaper components into their appliances then we wouldn't have this problem!
 
I can see some cases for them, but the cost/benefit looks very poor to me.

They do work on RFC but don't detect an open ring as practically no arcing takes place there as voltage difference is very small, however, they should detect arc faults on appliance cables that are attached that are above the few amps threshold.

But again, where is the evidence for their use? That is a proper analysis of fire (or near fire fault) cases that clearly would have been stopped by an AFDD and not things like lint fires in tumble dryers, etc.


Funny you mention evidence. In the US, other than cut wire wrapped in glass tape and hooked up to a neon gas transformer in a laboratory there is zero evidence that arcing is behind any residential fires to begin with.

There is the case of firefighters opening walls to find smoldering studs with romex stapled across them. However, pyrophoric carbonization from an energized staple likely to be the real cause behind these events was and is miss-theorized into arcing. Ignoring the evidence of dried wood around nails and the foundation some distance from the smoldering area indicative of low level current leakage over the years and not arcing.
 
Thats what the plug top fuse is for, literally. A short in the flex will open the fuse within 3 cycles. Though anyone here can correct me on that if not so in practice.

A 13A fuse won't blow on an arc fault though. A fuse takes a relatively long time to open.
 
Maybe we should be pushing for the white goods industry to stop throwing cheaper & cheaper components into their appliances then we wouldn't have this problem!
And that is the problem, accordingly to what I've heard, committee that wrote the standards are made up manufacturers, in white goods industry.
 
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Thats what the plug top fuse is for, literally. A short in the flex will open the fuse within 3 cycles. Though anyone here can correct me on that if not so in practice.
I understood that an AFDD should be detecting an intermittent rapid change in current e.g. a loose connection in L or in N that is arcing (and which would likely not blow any fuse).
 
Do have a time current curve to common BS1363 fuses?
Here is the typical plot, not as well defined as BS88 fuses:
BS1362FusingTime.png
 
I understood that an AFDD should be detecting an intermittent rapid change in current e.g. a loose connection in L or in N that is arcing (and which would likely not blow any fuse).


A parallel L-N or L-E event will blow the fuse.

A series event without an outer screen to earth itself out to would technically require an AFDD, however, I do not believe partially severed cords are behind any number of fires. I aslo do not believe that AFDDs accurately detect dangerous arcing. Cost effective AFDDs will always be a compromise between tripping on dangerous arcing and not tripping on electronics, vacuums, drills and the like. All to often one is indistinguishable from the other and the 1.5-5 amp series current pickup is part of that compromise.
 
A parallel L-N or L-E event will blow the fuse.

A series event without an outer screen to earth itself out to would technically require an AFDD, however, I do not believe partially severed cords are behind any number of fires. I aslo do not believe that AFDDs accurately detect dangerous arcing. Cost effective AFDDs will always be a compromise between tripping on dangerous arcing and not tripping on electronics, vacuums, drills and the like. All to often one is indistinguishable from the other and the 1.5-5 amp series current pickup is part of that compromise.

A brief L-N arc event will not rupture a 13A fuse.
 
A brief L-N arc event will not rupture a 13A fuse.


From what I understand (and could be wrong) a 32 amp MCB has a max Ze of 1.15 ohms or 200 amps of perspective fault current at the furthest point of the socket. 200/13 would be 15 times the rating. Thus 200 amps trips a TDC180 British plug to fuse in under 0.01 seconds.

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/e...s/data-sheet/eaton-tdc180-fuse-data-sheet.pdf

This is assuming TDC180 fuses are of the same kind used in the UK.
 
This is assuming TDC180 fuses are of the same kind used in the UK.
From above curve, worst-case it is 0.03s at 200A PFC.

I guess the real question is what sort of fault will start a fire but only an AFDD will trip, and how common/likely are they?

In my limited experience of sorting out fixed wiring, the only two cases of a long-term serial arc were light bulb holders in the days of 60W/100W lights and you could sometimes here the buzzing and see the light dim slightly. Yes, those are circuits for which AFDD are not recommended...
 
Does anyone know the figures for the improvement from fitting these devices in Germany? I can't see how any figures could be of value as if a competent person installs an AFDD board they are also going to check the condition of the installation and could remove fire hazards skewing the results.
 
From above curve, worst-case it is 0.03s at 200A PFC.

I guess the real question is what sort of fault will start a fire but only an AFDD will trip, and how common/likely are they?

In my limited experience of sorting out fixed wiring, the only two cases of a long-term serial arc were light bulb holders in the days of 60W/100W lights and you could sometimes here the buzzing and see the light dim slightly. Yes, those are circuits for which AFDD are not recommended...


Right, which at worse case would translate to 1 1/2 cycles on a 50Hz supply and about 2 cycles on a 60Hz supply if I have my math right. The maximum time which an arc fault can persist is 8 half cycles or 4 cycles on a 60Hz supply according to standard UL1699.


Testing done by UL in the United States has shown that the parallel resistance is only 0.03 ohms; page 337.


https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70_A2022_NEC_P02_FD_PIReport_1of2_rev.pdf


When maximum Zs, 0.03 ohms arc impedance and the typical length of flex resistance are summed together the resulting current flow universally clears the fuse fast enough that the time (incident energy) does exceed those set by UL1699 and IEC-62606.


What folks in the UK have to realize is that before AFCIs were created in the US, the EU and British systems were extensively studied and determined to significantly limit short circuit energy (sputtering) which was theorized (key word) to be behind a sizable percentage of US residential electrical fires.

Where it all went horribly wrong was instead of mandating set earth fault loop impedance requirements in NFPA-70, research went out to determine the lowest reasonable short circuit current that may be found in a dwelling as is- which was discovered to be around 75 amps. And so the original concept was to lower the magnetic pickup on 15 and 20 amp breakers to 75 amps. When it was realized this would result in nuisance tripping on high inrush items like motors, tools and ballasts the electronic AFCI was created so tripping would be accomplished via AND logic looking for both ripple & magnitude instead of magnitude alone to achieve security. Although we know said security was not so- every time someone switched on a vaccuum cleaner with a brushed motor it was (and still is) another callback for the electrician.

Considering that Zs values almost always permit current flow over 125% of an MCB magnetic pickup there is absolutely no parallel event in the UK that will trip an AFDD but won't also trip an MCB.

Which leaves us with serial events. Serial events are the end stage of joule heating and rarely if ever occure on their own. The only way to stop a fire occurring from joule heating is by catching the event in its infancy- detecting local temperature rise before it reaches 1000*C. With AFDDs by then its to late, the only hope being the glowing connection will not have ignited any material long enough to produce a current signature.
 
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It's an interesting point this.Considering an RFC is 2 conductors in parallel, an arc in one leg is strictly speaking bridged out by the other leg. So theoretically there should be no arc on the damaged leg? Am I missing something here?
It wont work on a RFC if there is just a loose connection on the RFC. But will/should work on a series arc from socket to appliance. Providing the load after the arc is 2.5amps (1.5amps For Electrium devices).
The trouble is most internal appliance wiring is parallel so it depends where the loose connection is, if its loose connection to just one low power internal component within the appliance it wont detect anything.
 
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As above, a real high-current arc is still detected, but a poor connection on the RFC will not show up as practically no arcing takes place. Typically you will only see ~10V drop at the break and that is not enough to sustain an arc of any note.
 
It wont work on a RFC if there is just a loose connection on the RFC. But will/should work on a series arc from socket to appliance.
OK. This is the part I want to get straight in my head. Is it more correct to say then that arcing in the fixed wiring of an RFC won't be detected while arcing in appliances connected to an RFC will likely be detected?
 
Hager has a document claiming that they work on RFC's but acknowledge that only if the fault is on a spur or appliance connection (Arc Fault Detection - Hager UK - https://hager.com/uk/support/regulations-18th-edition/arc-fault-detection-devices). The AFDD's for use in Europe are substantially different to the ones used in the US, ours will be microcontroller based and will be tested against criteria to check that they play nice with other equipment. IEC62606 can be found online if you are interested in how they perform.
 
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There is a few vids on affdddds on the tube from eefix in conjunction with wylex


but apart from that I have seen little out in the real world about how much and when affdddds will come out and when we are expected to fit them as standard
 
Yeah.

But with BG at under 100 for a populated board there's still a massive gap.

I'd also expect to see some form of public engagement otherwise all hell is going to break loose come Feb.

Are wholesalers going to stop selling 17th Amd3 boards?

I think not.

Or it gets worse and we start ending up sorting DIY s*it!

Be afraid, be very afraid....
 
I have done just 1 estimate for a afdd rcbo based upon my wholesalers prices (no mark up on my end) 13 circuits , spd , tail pack , gland pack etc etc it came to £2679 inc vat that is parts only not my labour added
 
Ive never seen them put into practice so wasn't sure how sensitive they are. I was just thinking it would make things a lot cheaper until the prices came down. Much like when dual split boards were much cheaper than full RCBO boards but now the prices have dropped.
 
I did read over the proposed amendment and AFDD are not being pushed for lights or high current loads like showers. Odd really, as most seriously burned out examples I have seen have been shower circuits, but maybe good old fashioned resistance and so no arcing to make one trip?

So it might be a case that really they only get used for sockets, in which case I foresee the return of a single/dual RFC per property!
 
Hager has a document claiming that they work on RFC's but acknowledge that only if the fault is on a spur or appliance connection
Helpful link. Confirming then what we suspected, that RFC fixed wiring is not protected against a series arc, except in the extremely unlikely scenario of 2 arcs taking place simultaneousely.
 

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