Amendment 2 and AFDD's

[Dave Appleby]

Hi.

Been reading the but around 427.1.7.

Does anyone have any idea on retrospective application?

Is this going to apply to every board change or just adapted to new builds and then as a C3 recommendation for everything else?

Given prices it's going to be a massive cost change on a board swop. Plus, I know for certain I'm going to have space issues with anything over 30 years old here in Fife.

Thoughts?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Until the make a single module arc fault breaker that can retro fit most boards and costs less than £50 a pop then they are a non starter imo

 

[Dave Appleby]

Until the make a single module arc fault breaker that can retro fit most boards and costs less than £50 a pop then they are a non starter imo

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

However, the wording is SO ambiguous as to be virtually meaningless

 

[Vortigern]

My 18th edition only goes up to 424, errm.....

 

[Dave Appleby]

My 18th edition only goes up to 424, errm.....

Yes yes. 421!!!?

 

[UNG]

Until the make a single module arc fault breaker that can retro fit most boards and costs less than £50 a pop then they are a non starter imo

I was thinking more like £30

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

Regulation 421.1.7 has been redrafted. It is now a requirement (rather than a recommendation) to protect final circuits supplying socket-outlets and fixed current-using equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32 A by arc fault detection devices (AFDDs).

So the majority of circuits basically?

I've never looked at AFDDs before.

Do they have built in overload and RCD protection or are they an additional device?

Are they one device per consumer unit or one per circuit?

 

[nicebutdim]

Regulation 421.1.7 has been redrafted. It is now a requirement (rather than a recommendation) to protect final circuits supplying socket-outlets and fixed current-using equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32 A by arc fault detection devices (AFDDs).

So the majority of circuits basically?

I've never looked at AFDDs before.

Do they have built in overload and RCD protection or are they an additional device?

Are they one device per consumer unit or one per circuit?

Those that I've seen (Crabtree & Wylex) are single module RCBOs, with AFDD incorporated.

 

[Doomed]

Regulation 421.1.7 has been redrafted. It is now a requirement (rather than a recommendation) to protect final circuits supplying socket-outlets and fixed current-using equipment with a rated current not exceeding 32 A by arc fault detection devices (AFDDs).

So the majority of circuits basically?

I've never looked at AFDDs before.

Do they have built in overload and RCD protection or are they an additional device?

Are they one device per consumer unit or one per circuit?

MCB/RCD/AFDD combination, one per circuit, like a RCBO on steroids

 

[pc1966]

MCB/RCD/AFDD combination, one per circuit, like a RCBO on steroids

And a price tag to match:

Consumer Units: Fuse Boxes & Fuse Boards

Explore our range of consumer units. NO MINIMUM ORDER, money back guarantee, FREE delivery over £50 ex VAT, 5⭐ reviews. Order fuse boxes & fuse boards here✅

www.discount-electrical.co.uk

For comparison, the Wylex RCBOs:

Consumer Units: Fuse Boxes & Fuse Boards

Explore our range of consumer units. NO MINIMUM ORDER, money back guarantee, FREE delivery over £50 ex VAT, 5⭐ reviews. Order fuse boxes & fuse boards here✅

www.discount-electrical.co.uk

 

[suffolkspark]

Nobody will get board changes done when the board costs £2k on its own when they can get a BG from screwfix for £70, it's bad enough now! completely counter intuitive regulation

 

[Dustydazzler]

3 grand board changes will become the norm sooner or later

 

[UNG]

Nobody will get board changes done when the board costs £2k on its own when they can get a BG from screwfix for £70, it's bad enough now! completely counter intuitive regulation

I see the "what price do you put on safety" comments now but I think making them mandatory is a step to far IMO especially when the AFCI's used across the pond don't appear to get good reviews as to how beneficial they really are.

I see a lot of problems on the horizon when these combined units start tripping is it an overload, is it an earth fault or is it an arc fault or is it a faulty protection device, ok it is easy to eliminate any overload but there are still 2 components within the protection device that need to be verified ok the RCD function can be tested but that leaves the AFDD function so do you swap the device or do you rewire the circuit or both, yes we are told the AFDD has it's in built function test but so does an RCD and that push button test does fail occassionally

I really feel the industry hasn't had the time or taken the time to properly evaluate the AFDD and inform and educate the trade of the pro's and con's before forcing the fitment of them. How long was the ELCB / RCD around before fitting them became the norm and was then more or less mandated

I think the AFDD is going to be a hard sell looking at the links in a previous post a 550 - 600% increase in cost for the protection devices alone is no doubt going to increase the posts on here by some customers who think the electrician who has told them they need a new CU at a cost of a few thousand pounds is ripping them off

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

So is there no AFDD which can be installed and protect multiple circuits (like an RCD on a dual split board for instance)?

 

[Dustydazzler]

So is there no AFDD which can be installed and protect multiple circuits (like an RCD on a dual split board for instance)?

An AFDD that covers more than 1 circuit would be a nightmare.

 

[pc1966]

I see the "what price do you put on safety" comments now but I think making them mandatory is a step to far IMO especially when the AFCI's used across the pond don't appear to get good reviews as to how beneficial they really are.

But are they?

I have seen comments by some of the USA folk like @Megawatt and @Cookie to the effect they are unreliable and a significant source of problem trips, even to the point of being fitted for new installation inspection and then changed back to GFCI (RCD) afterwards.

Key here is the cost/benefit question. We can see the current costs and, while that will probably drop, it is going to be a big factor for some time on the affordability of professional electrical work. But what of the benefits? Has anyone got a proper analysis of how many fires they might stop to justify the cost?

Critically many "electrical fires" are appliances like tumble dryers with lint catching fire, or motor run caps (and similar) going up in flames, and AFDD would do nothing there.

The argument "If it saves one life" is misleading because by mandating AFDD a significant number of poor / dodgy installations simply won't be updated as they become unaffordable and so there is a real risk of a greater number of accidents due to a lack of RCD or other cheaper improvements that could have been done in-budget. I find it rather strange there is not any proper analysis being put forward to justify them even by the manufacturers, but maybe I just have not seen it.

 

[SparkySy]

From what testing I have seen of them on YouTube they are utterly useless. I have not seen a manufacturer test one and Bragg about how great they are!
There should be evidence from the USA surely as they have been around a while there now.

I think it's a secret ploy to limit the amount of electricity we use by having them trip out for no obvious reason whenever they feel like it! That will sort the impending electrical doom without having to build more wind farms or power stations ?

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

When we already struggle to get customers to pay fair prices at times because "someone they know" can do it for half the price, I believe this will potentially make us lose even more work.

If we abide by the regs and cost a board change for £2000 for example includings AFDDs, how are we supposed to compete with builders/handymen/cowboys who will completely ignore that part of the regulations and price for a dual split board and the customer will be clueless?

 

[UNG]

So is there no AFDD which can be installed and protect multiple circuits (like an RCD on a dual split board for instance)?

Yes there is but it would create a whole new problem of which circuit caused it to trip or was it a nuisance trip

 

[nicebutdim]

If we abide by the regs and cost a board change for £2000 for example includings AFDDs, how are we supposed to compete with builders/handymen/cowboys who will completely ignore that part of the regulations and price for a dual split board and the customer will be clueless?

I don't see current prices being sustained for long, should manufactured quantities significantly increase, and expect most to be on the market at the sort of prices RCBOs were a couple of years ago - although that's an entirely separate issue from the actual effectiveness of AFDDs.