Amendment 2 And other peoples thoughts.

[The Chief]

Good Evening,

Amendment 2. Just wanted to ask your thoughts on this once more money making criteria that's been laid before us? The Introduction of AFDD's, as I know has been hanging around for some time and is soon to be introduced.
What sort of nightmare is this going to course us in the real world in detecting a potential problem if for example a 10 way consumer unit?:
a) The cost - If say £100.00 per module (Dependant on the manufacturer) = £1000.00. Cost of the enclosure plus SPD. The cost of the test and labour to install???? Plus any remedials found.
b) The size of the enclosure (especially in confined locations)
c) The problems being that once fitted the AFDD trips and if an RCBO/AFDD which is it? An earth- neutral fault of an accessory with loose terminals? And then the customer quotes to you " Well it worked fine to you touched it and I can't get on Amazon now". Yes understood, If a test has been carried out via insulation resistance prior to the installation that there is a potential problem waiting to happen. I always carry out out an EICR on the property prior to a board change but if some one can enlighten me as to finding what might be lurking with arcing with the AFDD - then please feel free to enlighten me.
d) Now the new costs of all the new literature £££££

Kind Regards

 

[loz2754]

Let's wait and see what the Amendment 2 actually says....

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

It will get interesting, from what i have found online the general consensus of people in the know is it will be recommended for high risk buildings but not for existing, in time i expect it will be for all new circuits

 

[timhoward]

The problems being that once fitted the AFDD trips and if an RCBO/AFDD which is it?

The only AFDD I have seen in real life has an LED blink pattern that tells you the reason for the last trip, over current, earth leakage, or arcing.
On a practical note as we will have lots of microcontrollers in the CU I'd imagine using an SPD too would be a given.

But I'd be surprised if they are mandatory for domestic in all circumstances straight away; even SPDs aren't yet.

 

[littlespark]

Did I see an article that split rcd boards were not to be used??? Only RCBO now?

Many of us only fit RCBO only boards so maybe not a huge change.

 

[partplonker]

But I'd be surprised if they are mandatory for domestic in all circumstances straight away; even SPDs aren't yet.

I agree, I can't see AFDDs staying as anything other than a recommendation for now mainly due to their very high cost. I haven't found a single mod version from any manufacturer less than £126

As I understand it, they're not much use on domestic lighting circuits due to the low load so it would be silly for that to ever be a requirement. They aren't effective on rings due to the second leg so only parallel arcs between live conductors can be detected (which in many cases would trip an RCD).

It would be great to have info from the fire service on where the majority of electrical fires actually start and their nature to see if AFDDs are an effective solution to anything.

 

[OnlQQker]

With all this technology, I'm sure they could build a consumer unit which actually gave you all the information you could ever need from a built in computerised display.

 

[littlespark]

With all this technology, I'm sure they could build a consumer unit which actually gave you all the information you could ever need from a built in computerised display.

Next thing will be a Smart CU, that can report any detected faults to your nominated service engineer to repair.

Big Brother is watching

 

[pc1966]

It would be great to have info from the fire service on where the majority of electrical fires actually start and their nature to see if AFDDs are an effective solution to anything.

<== This

We see a lot of mention of "electrical fires" but very little information on how many would have tripped an AFDD to stop it. Often the biggest recalls for high risk white good have been for things like tumble dryers collecting lint and starting a fire from the heating, etc, for when AFDD would make zero difference.

I'm not against AFDD in principle, if they do make a useful difference to safety that is good, but that has to be weighed up against the high cost and very limited means to test/diagnose what is tripping one. I can see a lot of customers being VERY unhappy if they spend £2k on a new CU and then have endless false trips that no one can adequately explain or fix.

But more seriously, and not usually discussed, is how many jobs that merit a CU change would simply be postponed as unaffordable, leading to a higher risk of fire/shock from not even having RCD protection or other installation risks addressed at the same time. Or getting dodgy Dave from down the pub to do it instead and making it worse than before!

 

[UNG]

It would be great to have info from the fire service on where the majority of electrical fires actually start and their nature to see if AFDDs are an effective solution to anything.

The fire service analysis of fire causes is at best limited and sometimes misanalysed where blame has to be attributed, the stats that caused the introduction of metal CU's in domestic premises were very flawed and highlighted London's figures which misrepresented the rest of the UK which were less than 5% of London's peak of 258 in the same period

Next thing will be a Smart CU, that can report any detected faults to your nominated service engineer to repair.

Big Brother is watching

Smart meters disconnecting high load circuits to reduce energy consumption anyone

 

[The Chief]

I think all of you correct on your comments, especially as a report I read is that 89% of electrical fires are due to faulty appliances. The remaining 11% are down to the installation and people not using installations properly.

I'm sure we've all been into properties where you take a switch or socket away from the wall and all of the cores have popped out due to loose terminals for fun hence the EICR. But Isn't the requirement for looking at 20% as a minimum of the installation on an EICR, not every accessory? I know many times that I can loosen terminals with two fingers easily when replacing accessories. What will an AFDD do then to these accessories if introduced? It'll be your fault essentially.

Many thanks for your comments and we'll see what Amendment 2 has in store for us.

Thanks

 

[Lucien Nunes]

They aren't effective on rings due to the second leg

This is an oft-quoted criticism that I don't think is really fair. Many faults on rings will be loose terminals in sockets, which will arc between the socket terminal and both legs, in which case the AFDD will trip. Also with faults inside accessories - fuseholder contacts, bad contact at the plug pins on dryers etc. the AFDD will be equally effective on rings as on radials. The only reason an AFDD won't find a fault on a ring is if it doesn't arc, which is reasonable enough for an arc detector. It's not there to spot unbalanced cable loading.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

But Isn't the requirement for looking at 20% as a minimum of the installation on an EICR, not every accessory?

I don't think there is any minimum % requirement is there?

 

[brianmoooore]

Smart meters disconnecting high load circuits to reduce energy consumption anyone

More likely is 'dynamic' pricing. £5 to boil your kettle at peak time.

 

[partplonker]

More likely is 'dynamic' pricing. £5 to boil your kettle at peak time.

Smart meters disconnecting high load circuits to reduce energy consumption anyone

I hope they aren't reading this forum and getting ideas!

 

[Rockingit]

I hope they aren't reading this forum and getting ideas!

They don't need to read this forum, they've already read your thoughts

 

[UNG]

I hope they aren't reading this forum and getting ideas!

I think you need to catch up on your reading Smart meter tech spec
They are well ahead of this forum SMETS 2 has been around for a while and I did read somewhere that SMETS 3 is on the way