Thx to the forum over the years | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Thx to the forum over the years in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 11, 2023
Messages
88
Solutions
1
Reaction score
24
Location
London
Beware a little long.
I served an electrical apprenticeship a long time ago, then went back to full time education immediately moving away from mainly domestic electricity work to jobs with greater reward (and interest), and not crawling around filthy lofts. There have been significant advances in domestic electrics since I was crawling around lofts as a kid, notably, LED lighting, RCDs, RCBOs, AFDDs, SPDs and screwless connectors (which have made their way onto light fittings and some 13A sockets). I recall ELCBs for specialist applications when I was a kid, few had them in homes. The only real safety advance at the time. The words 'consumer unit' were unheard of.

I have always been an admirer of the German, French, Continental main panels. They are multi row, inset into walls, have an RCD on each row with the data/comms all in one neat attractive metal enclosure. Impressive and state of the art. We would have fuse boxes under stairs where you had to lay on your stomach to get at them. Or a fuse box high up on a wall in a downstairs toilet in new builds, having to stand on the toilet to reset a breaker. Appalling. We were/are third world to their latest equipment and ways. Their breakers are also double pole all through, to our standard single pole, and their twin L & N busbars reducing wiring in the main panels. All very well thought out and neat. I noticed last week Screwfix sell the Schneider multi row metal consumer unit and the twin busbars. So some hope there we are going their way.

However, when looking at the Continental main panels (I prefer those words) below the attractive looks, I was always struck at the many circuits just a two bedroomed apartment had, as they had dedicated radials to certain appliances and socket radials and breakers to a room or two rooms at the most. In Britain it was common to see three circuits in flats in a small 'fusebox': the socket ring circuit, cooker and lights. A relative has a 35 year old house, detached, 4 bed, two bathroom with an attached garage. Heat and hot water by gas. His consumer unit was high in the garage, needing a ladder to get to, but with only a five circuits: one ring, two lights, cooker and immersion. The immersion has never been switched on as it is backup only. I immediately though cowboy cheapo builders skimping, but he said he has been there 25 years and not once has he had problems of any sort. He even has a big American fridge, washing machine, dryer and dishwasher of the one ring. And of course the TV, laptop etc. He had his consumer unit changed to a Fuse Box model with all DP RCBOs fitted at face height.

It hit me that the ring circuit was why he did not need a mass of circuits to our radial fitting Continental cousins. I have always admired the genius, simplicity and economy of the ring circuit, which the British G type fuse in plug, protecting the flex, makes possible. I would argue with Americans and Continentals defending the ring, that there was two ways back to the main panel for the earth, the cables less stressed by current, and that as we were taught it was a socket busbar run around the house. It was also economical to install. You can plug in a 3kW appliance into any socket with it fully working. We all were on the side of rings, all of us, sneering radials used for sockets circuits. I have noticed Youtube channels like Efixx and a few others, promote radials these days, which many just follow without thinking. I suspect this is under the prompting of sponsor manufacturers who want to sell MCBs, RCBOs, more cable, etc.

The big criticism from Americans and Continentals of the ring was that if the ring is severed for some reason, loose connection or just cut, one of the cables on one of the ring's 2.5mm legs could overheat drawing too much current causing a fire, as it is protected by a 32A breaker. A fair point. But I pointed out 4mm cable can be used, so no problem. They pointed out that using two 4mm conductors in one socket terminal to make the ring is cumbersome, and may put stress on the cable as the socket in pushed in. A fair point, although this applies to radial and ring circuits. They said 4mm is rarely used for sockets as they have a limit to sockets on any radial. These days safety device introduction has made the ring far, far, safer, so should be the first circuit of choice.

Well where is all this leading to you may ask. For a number of years I was considering a total flat renovation of my 2 bed flat, new bathroom, kitchen, electrics, floors, all new pipes, new combi, new doors, skirtings, etc. Then I am set for life. I was on a budget, so had to look at where savings could be made. I looked at the electrics. Skimming the forums here I gleened over the years since I was inactive in electrics, that the regs had changed markedly, and new safety devices introduced. The forum helped me here. I was aware of screwless connectors from commercial Continental applications I had seen, being impressed, but the new small Wago and In-Sure were new to me. The forum made me aware of double pole RCBO and AFDDs, and the regs relating to AFDDs and SPDs and that induction hobs were available on 13A plugs.

The forum directed me to the reg that I needed an 'expensive' AFDD on any circuit with a socket on it as the block I live in has too many floors to be exempted. So, with safety in mind and the reservations of Americans and Continentals on the ring circuit in my mind I designed the electrical installation for the flat. I ended up with 'three' circuits:

1. The hob and oven circuit. The hob can be on a 13 amp plug and oven draws about 14 amps. They both are off one 4mm T&E cable on a 32A DP RCBO. Both on a 20A isolator switches in an adjacent cupboard.

2. The ring circuit. It supplies all the sockets in the flat, as it is less than 100 square metres and one fused spur to the combi. It is in 4mm T&E cable on a DP 32A AFDD (32A is max these days for rings I read). A number of forum members mentioned having screwless lever connectors in backboxes taking the ring's load, then 2.5mm flex to the sockets. All using Wago or In-Sure lever connectors. I went this way using ferrules on the flex. Then no problems of having to use the socket terminals with two cumbersome 4mm conductors in them. The 4mm cable was easy to fit into the backboxes using the screwless lever connectors. Then the socket terminals do not take the ring's current load. This raises safety levels, just what I want. If the ring is severed the 4mm cable will not overheat, as the 32A AFDD will protect it, just what I want.

Washer/dryer and 3/4 dishwasher have sockets in adjacent cupboards. Using diversity the ring will be under the 32 amp current draw.

3. Lights. All LEDs with a DP RCBO on 1.00mm T&E cable. One dimmer in living room serving three skirting height 5A round pin light fittings for table lamps.

Only drums of 4mm and 1.00mm cable making it cheap as per metre the cable is cheaper in larger drums. The 2.5mm flex was three-core 2.5mm flex with the outer sheath removed. Quite cheap, cheaper than buying three single cores. The consumer unit was a small cheaper metal job with an SPD. It does not take up space being very small and near to a large plastic enclosure, housing the Modem, data distribution to all rooms using RJ5 sockets, etc. Trunking used so no cables seen making it very neat. Had the installation signed off. Safety levels are 'very' high for minimum cost.

Money saved meant I could buy stainless flat plate sockets and light fittings and superior shower brassware. Yet high levels of safety.

Due to the simplicity and brilliance of the ring we do not need a multitude of radial circuits and big consumer units. So thanks to the many on the many threads over the past years I picked up all this current information on safety devices, low current hobs, and regs.
 
Solution
Hi, this is my first time here and third post, I was reluctant to subscribe as threads become circular and derailed going off the points far too much. I see that happening now. I never had the time to join in with threads, just wanting up to date info as my knowledge was of yesteryear. I did get the up to date info from the threads, then implemented it. I am giving the results.

I do not want to get into a circular argument, countering someone who wants to put two circuits in for everything, in case, creating redundancy. It is a 2 bed flat. All the flats I know have one lighting circuit. As it happens, I have light in the kitchen off the ring via the hob extractor fan. I also saw and bought on Ebay a 13A square pin to 5A round pin...
I’ve seen wagos melt and go open when using flex to an immersion heater.

New to me. Was it undersized? Why did it melt? The feedback on Wago types of lever connections is solid and positive. One Youtube video tests a Wago and other types connectors, with the Wago only melting after around 70 amps when after around 10-11 minutes.

It is best you read and get the points put across. I don't fully disagree with what you have posted, but most of I do. I am not into repeating myself.
 
Last edited:
New to me. Was it undersized? Why did it melt? The feedback on Wago types of lever connections is solid and positive.
It's quite well known that especially push fit wagos are better when used with solid core rather than flex.
 
We've had another member, who posted from a couple of different accounts, propose an almost identical installation to your own, with sockets spurred from lever connector joints, minimal number of circuits to reduce afdd cost etc. That member also shunned discussion of their ideas, but it must be understood that this is a discussion forum, where members share opinions, and not an online pulpit toward which no dissent can be directed.
I didn't like to say :)
 
Have seen them fail with built in connectors on fluorescent light fittings many times over. They are not the solution to every problem.
however they are good and I do use them when the application is suitable.
 
It's quite well known that especially push fit wagos are better when used with solid core rather than flex.
So the answer is fit ferrules then, Which should be on stranded cable anyhow.

Back to the melting of the Wago type of connector. We need to know the detailed circumstances.
 
Have seen them fail with built in connectors on fluorescent light fittings many times over. They are not the solution to every problem.
however they are good and I do use them when the application is suitable.
Obviously the light manufacturers own brand of push in. Avoid cheap fittings I suppose. The Wago and In-Sure have excellent reputations.
 
So the answer is fit ferrules then, Which should be on stranded cable anyhow.
If you're talking about the Wago 221 with levers, the manufacturer's say no ferrules are necessary

If you're talking about the Wago 2273 leaf spring terminals without levers, then these are only compatible with solid core wires. So you can't use stranded wires, even with a ferrule. In the event you manage to stick a wire with ferrule in the wago, you'll probably manage to push it half way in, but the indents left by the crimping tool on the ferrule will catch on the leaf spring and it will stay stuck there forever, can't push it in, can't pull it out. Also a big adantage of wago 2273 is the wires can turn inside the terminal which really helps when squeezing all the wires inside a junction box, and that can't happen with a ferrule. It's definitely not listed for use with stranded wires, no matter what's on the tip, so a definite no
Back to the melting of the Wago type of connector. We need to know the detailed circumstances.
Who's we ? 3kw immersion with long periods of use 2.5mm t&e into wago 221 feeding 2.5 flex to the heater melted the wago and went open circuit.
I crimped it in the end in a junction box, no problems since.

I have seen the video comparing wago, choc box and crimp and if I remember correctly they all went well past the rated current.

Screw type connections are everywhere and like already said have been used and reliable for decades
Lever type connections haven't yet been time proven, especially where moisture is present, I wonder how a wago spring would handle 20yrs in a damp environment.


What connectors did you use on your pair of 4mm down to 2.5mm flex ????
 
Last edited:
We've had another member, who posted from a couple of different accounts, propose an almost identical installation to your own, with sockets spurred from lever connector joints, minimal number of circuits to reduce afdd cost etc. That member also shunned discussion of their ideas, but it must be understood that this is a discussion forum, where members share opinions, and not an online pulpit toward which no dissent can be directed.
Well said, not a sarcastic comment, but meant.
 
So the answer is fit ferrules then, Which should be on stranded cable anyhow.

Ferrules are intended to protect fine stranded conductors from damage and to marshall them into one single core. Coarse stranded conductors, such as those found in 4mm T&E, do not benefit from use of ferrules.

Obviously the light manufacturers own brand of push in. Avoid cheap fittings I suppose. The Wago and In-Sure have excellent reputations.

Harland & Wolff had a long established reputation as excellent shipbuilders, yet that was of little comfort to those who perished on the Titanic.


Of the Wago connectors commonly sold in the UK, there are clearly printed recommendations on each pack and also available from the manufacturer's website.

773 push fit connectors are suitable for use with solid and coarse stranded conductors.
2273 push fit connectors are suitable for use with solid conductors.
2773 push fit connectors are suitable for use with solid and coarse stranded conductors.
222 lever connectors are suitable for use with solid, coarse stranded and fine stranded conductors.
221 lever connectors are suitable for use with solid, coarse stranded and fine stranded conductors.

Rated current varies between connector type and more than one rating may be printed on individual connectors. For confirmation of rating approved in UK, one needs to check Wago data sheets and be aware of any specific details found therein which may affect this rating.

InSure connectors I know less about and apply a personal current limit of 6A to those I'm trying to use up.
 
Ferrules are intended to protect fine stranded conductors from damage and to marshall them into one single core. Coarse stranded conductors, such as those found in 4mm T&E, do not benefit from use of ferrules.



Harland & Wolff had a long established reputation as excellent shipbuilders, yet that was of little comfort to those who perished on the Titanic.


Of the Wago connectors commonly sold in the UK, there are clearly printed recommendations on each pack and also available from the manufacturer's website.

773 push fit connectors are suitable for use with solid and coarse stranded conductors.
2273 push fit connectors are suitable for use with solid conductors.
2773 push fit connectors are suitable for use with solid and coarse stranded conductors.
222 lever connectors are suitable for use with solid, coarse stranded and fine stranded conductors.
221 lever connectors are suitable for use with solid, coarse stranded and fine stranded conductors.

Rated current varies between connector type and more than one rating may be printed on individual connectors. For confirmation of rating approved in UK, one needs to check Wago data sheets and be aware of any specific details found therein which may affect this rating.

InSure connectors I know less about and apply a personal current limit of 6A to those I'm trying to use up.
Use of these type of connectors isn't as straight forward as sometimes thought.

For instance, when using some ideal junction boxes they are rated at 16 amps even if you're using 32 amp connectors.

O/P hasn't replied to the question of what make/type of connector he used to make the 4 mm / flex /singles spur, although he was on this morning. :)
 
Use of these type of connectors isn't as straight forward as sometimes thought.

For instance, when using some ideal junction boxes they are rated at 16 amps even if you're using 32 amp connectors.

O/P hasn't replied to the question of what make/type of connector he used to make the 4 mm / flex /singles spur, although he was on this morning. :)
That's what I meant by checking data sheet for specific information which may affect rating.
 
That's what I meant by checking data sheet for specific information which may affect rating.
Good point. The In-Sure 'blue' junction box is rated at 24 amps according to Screwfix, even if the blue In-Sure Gen 2 Lever 32A connectors are used inside. The similar grey Wago junction box is rated at 41 amps.

I never used any of these boxes. I did use 16A screwless Dboxes for LED downlights on a 3A DP RCBO.

I used Wago connectors. I would be happy using the In-Sure blue lever connectors which going by Youtube, etc, have good rep, appearing to be equally as good, and I believe cheaper than Wago for similar products.
 
Last edited:
We've had another member, who posted from a couple of different accounts, propose an almost identical installation to your own, with sockets spurred from lever connector joints, minimal number of circuits to reduce afdd cost etc. That member also shunned discussion of their ideas, but it must be understood that this is a discussion forum, where members share opinions, and not an online pulpit toward which no dissent can be directed.
He, and others, may have been the one who tagged me onto using Wago screwless, although I have seen radials wired that way on the Continent, to avoid heavy current drawing radials current running though socket terminals. I have seen radials in a star formation with each socket's cable running back to a terminal block near the main panel with one cable back to the breaker. Lots of cable but failure points mainly clustered on one easy to get to and test point

If I recall a few here were on about having all sockets as spurs off a ring on this forum. Since a kid I always thought a ring's current must run 'not' through the ring's cable not through the terminals of the socket, for safety reasons I have outlined. But never mind. Others have come up with good nuggets of various info over the past three years or so.

I am on pulpit. Fist I thank those who gave me the info of the latest equipment and regs available. Cannot recall names. I would never have known that a ring is now limited to a 32A breaker. I have seen a few 4mm rings with 40-45A breakers in the past, now they are against regs. I am preaching what I did, and justifying it, not coming for advice. I am a professional. People telling me to add more expensive needless circuits will go in one ear and out the other.

Once again thanks to those positive people in the past (names unknown).
 
He, and others, may have been the one who tagged me onto using Wago screwless, although I have seen radials wired that way on the Continent, to avoid heavy current drawing radials current running though socket terminals. I have seen radials in a star formation with each socket's cable running back to a terminal block near the main panel with one cable back to the breaker. Lots of cable but failure points mainly clustered on one easy to get to and test point

If I recall a few here were on about having all sockets as spurs off a ring on this forum. Since a kid I always thought a ring's current must run 'not' through the ring's cable not through the terminals of the socket, for safety reasons I have outlined. But never mind. Others have come up with good nuggets of various info over the past three years or so.

I am on pulpit. Fist I thank those who gave me the info of the latest equipment and regs available. Cannot recall names. I would never have known that a ring is now limited to a 32A breaker. I have seen a few 4mm rings with 40-45A breakers in the past, now they are against regs. I am preaching what I did, and justifying it, not coming for advice. I am a professional. People telling me to add more expensive needless circuits will go in one ear and out the other.

Once again thanks to those positive people in the past (names unknown).

Not sure there's much point posting on a forum if you don't want to hear alternative views.

But having said that, I would still have two separate lighting circuits. If it's coming down to the cost of one RCBO then things are pretty tight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Reply to Thx to the forum over the years in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar threads

Joining the ends of the radials together to form a ring, and changing the circuit protection to a single 32A would solve the MCB overload problem...
Replies
8
Views
529
  • Question
I have to agree with Baldelectrician on almost everything he says except one ! I wouldn’t be walking away I’d be running lol. Definitely if your...
Replies
13
Views
1K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top