I thought short courses were fine. Just done a week on site. Now i think they're not fit for purpose.

[Electrics]

This thread gives an interesting alternative view on the short courses and their potential short comings from someone who is actually on the sharp end, I'm looking forward to the updates as you progress and how long it will be before you are knocking the short courses as a seasoned professional

I would stick with the day release 2 or 3 evenings a week is hard going after a full day onsite, I did the final year of my C&G C certificate 3 evenings per week at college and it was hard going by the time you throw in some homework

Good luck with your journey and I hope it is all you expect it to be

Thanks for the advice mate, i'm always happy to admit when i'm wrong. Nobody gains knowledge by refusing to admit when they've made a mistake. In my ignorance i thought the courses would be fine, the reality of the real world working environment says differently.

You would get away with house bashing if you combined one of these courses + books + internet + forums + existing knowledge of house construction etc. With the regs books on hand and some testing and inspection experience i think basic 3 phase domestic would be fairly easy to achieve within a year on your own. But there is no way a guy like that is going to walk into a massive factory with gigantic incoming supply, about 10 different DB's and dozens of switchboards and comms units and know what he is doing. No way.

I think there needs to be a regulatory body who oversees and regulates it here (in Europe us and Netherlands are the only unregulated countries) and who can then distinguish between basic domestic installation and 'real' electricians.

In France they distinguish between the two. It's a 1200 hour course over 10 months, including 6 weeks full time on site with a company just to be able to do domestic. If you want to be an 'electrical technician' you then have to do an addition few thousand hour course that lasts from 12 to 18 months including a substantial work placement.

I think it's the way to go.

 

[LukeD]

Thanks for the advice mate, i'm always happy to admit when i'm wrong. Nobody gains knowledge by refusing to admit when they've made a mistake. In my ignorance i thought the courses would be fine, the reality of the real world working environment says differently.

You would get away with house bashing if you combined one of these courses + books + internet + forums + existing knowledge of house construction etc. With the regs books on hand and some testing and inspection experience i think basic 3 phase domestic would be fairly easy to achieve within a year on your own. But there is no way a guy like that is going to walk into a massive factory with gigantic incoming supply, about 10 different DB's and dozens of switchboards and comms units and know what he is doing. No way.

I think there needs to be a regulatory body who oversees and regulates it here (in Europe us and Netherlands are the only unregulated countries) and who can then distinguish between basic domestic installation and 'real' electricians.

In France they distinguish between the two. It's a 1200 hour course over 10 months, including 6 weeks full time on site with a company just to be able to do domestic. If you want to be an 'electrical technician' you then have to do an addition few thousand hour course that lasts from 12 to 18 months including a substantial work placement.

I think it's the way to go.

The whole construction industry is a joke in the UK.

 

[Electrics]

The whole construction industry is a joke in the UK.

I'd agree with that. Too little pride in work and too much corner cutting.

Also apprentices tend to be treated as dogsbody for half their apprenticeship and left to their own devices the other half. Seen it often where qualified people are clueless. I knew a time served decorator who couldn't hang lining paper properly.

 

[LukeD]

I'd agree with that. Too little pride in work and too much corner cutting.

Also apprentices tend to be treated as dogsbody for half their apprenticeship and left to their own devices the other half. Seen it often where qualified people are clueless. I knew a time served decorator who couldn't hang lining paper properly.

Its down to super poor training route and Private companies been in charge .The german method is far superior etc.

 

[Lister1987]

The electrical industry is so vast and varied that there is no way someone will learn everything. There is an obvious disadvantage to training Vs experience (courses (college or otherwise) Vs Apprenticeship), one is no good without the other and the onus is put on experience because that makes the money.

I've got that level 2&3 through college over the 2 years but have yet to find anyone willing to take a chance on me. I knew from the off that short courses were frowned on and figured getting knowledge before experience would help with gaining the latter; I mean surely you'd take on someone that knows the how and why a job is done and then ensuring they can apply it versus giving someone a screwdriver and babysitting them until they have it mastered?

The whole Apprenticeship route is screwed also, mostly due to the lower wage in Year 1 and the nigh on impossibility of 'flipping" to an apprenticeship after doing Level 2/3.

Until there is a change of mindset on the industry (both electrical and training sides), getting in without an apprenticeship is ridiculously difficult.

 

[Electrics]

The electrical industry is so vast and varied that there is no way someone will learn everything. There is an obvious disadvantage to training Vs experience (courses (college or otherwise) Vs Apprenticeship), one is no good without the other and the onus is put on experience because that makes the money.

I've got that level 2&3 through college over the 2 years but have yet to find anyone willing to take a chance on me. I knew from the off that short courses were frowned on and figured getting knowledge before experience would help with gaining the latter; I mean surely you'd take on someone that knows the how and why a job is done and then ensuring they can apply it versus giving someone a screwdriver and babysitting them until they have it mastered?

The whole Apprenticeship route is screwed also, mostly due to the lower wage in Year 1 and the nigh on impossibility of 'flipping" to an apprenticeship after doing Level 2/3.

Until there is a change of mindset on the industry (both electrical and training sides), getting in without an apprenticeship is ridiculously difficult.

To be honest my goal longer term is to work for myself so in your situation i'd just go for it and start up on my own. Can't be relying on others to give you a chance, you have to make your own luck sometimes. If you've got the theory knowledge then the experience will come through doing. Much harder with nobody on site to turn to but not impossible especially if you're only doing domestic.

Why not do this: start your own company, get the work rolling in and take on a fully qualified man to work alongside you. Then you hired your own mentor.

 

[DPG]

To be honest my goal longer term is to work for myself so in your situation i'd just go for it and start up on my own. Can't be relying on others to give you a chance, you have to make your own luck sometimes. If you've got the theory knowledge then the experience will come through doing. Much harder with nobody on site to turn to but not impossible especially if you're only doing domestic.

Why not do this: start your own company, get the work rolling in and take on a fully qualified man to work alongside you. Then you hired your own mentor.

But you would still need to have enough knowledge and experience to know that the guy is doing a proper job.

 

[Lister1987]

But you would still need to have enough knowledge and experience to know that the guy is doing a proper job.

Valid point, the biggest worries are being able to do the job to a decent enough standard, if you've only had college experience and no site experience then you're effectively putting customers as your learning curve and that just don't sit right with me. Being able to generate enough work to sustain your family and business and thr biggest one for me is my body being able to take it. If I end up working for someone else doing testing etc then that's fine; Thr industry is bigger than just being on the tools, just gotta find my place.

 

[UNG]

The electrical industry is so vast and varied that there is no way someone will learn everything.

But how much does someone need to learn to be an electrician, while the industry is vast it is all interconnected by wires of various sizes and there are a lot of common areas across all the sectors. I don't subscribe to the "I only want to do domestic so single phase 230v is enough for me" when a number of the larger domestic properties I have worked on had a 3 phase incomer. Then again a single phase incomer is derived from the 3 phase supply running down the street so how much do you really need to know and understand of this vast industry
The fact is these days the internet provides a crutch to prop up the lack of knowledge, training and experience

Why not do this: start your own company, get the work rolling in and take on a fully qualified man to work alongside you. Then you hired your own mentor.

Do you really think that would work

 

[Electrics]

Do you really think that would work

There's no rule that says i need to be an expert in electrics to start an electrical company. Someone who's just good at admin could do that, and employ someone who knows what they're talking about and pay them a wage to do the hands on stuff and pricing etc.

I had a friend who started a company outsourcing coding to bigger companies. He knew nothing about programming and simply hired people who did - he was just a businessman starting a business.

No reason you couldn't do that as the business owner and then also work in your own company as a mate.

It'd be a faff to set up but obviously it's doable.

 

[Electrics]

But you would still need to have enough knowledge and experience to know that the guy is doing a proper job.

That's where credentials come in.

You just hire someone who did an apprenticeship, has a good work history and references etc. If Steve applies for the job and Steve did his time, has been working in the game for 10 years and has glowing references it's probably likely he will be good enough at the job. You then hire him, pay him his £25 an hour and say 'i'm also qualified but i'm going to be working as your mate'. Hey presto, you got yourself a job.

Lots of companies start off as eg joiners and then as they grow they incorporate the other trades into the company without necessarily knowing much about them themselves.

 

[UNG]

That's where credentials come in.

You just hire someone who did an apprenticeship, has a good work history and references etc. If Steve applies for the job and Steve did his time, has been working in the game for 10 years and has glowing references it's probably likely he will be good enough at the job. You then hire him, pay him his £25 an hour and say 'i'm also qualified but i'm going to be working as your mate'. Hey presto, you got yourself a job.

Lots of companies start off as eg joiners and then as they grow they incorporate the other trades into the company without necessarily knowing much about them themselves.

One of the best electricians I ever employed had one of the worst references ever and quite a few with glowing references were soon found out and fired. So sorry to shoot down your theory but you can't depend on references
Also I'm not sure your business model stacks up if you take into account all the overheads including the non productive time for possibly 2 people at times while things like the paperwork is being done

 

[Megawatt]

This might be long so feel free to grab a brew.

So, as some of you may know, i'm a 34 year old who has been dying to get into the industry. I have fought for years to get someone to take me on and have been unsuccessful despite having a background in construction (I can basically build a whole house on my own) and can do the electrical basics.

I was so frustrated for years that I thought the only way I could get into the game was by doing one of those 16 week courses that promises to get your Level 3 C&G. I've actually signed up to one of the providers and then backed out on two separate occasions - one of them cost me a £150 deposit.

While I still think that sure, they're great at cramming and you get the exact same theory as someone on an apprenticeship route gets, it's become apparent to me that in the real world they're not worth the paper they're written on even if you get the same theory. Why? Experience. It's missing.

I thought, sure, once I can wire lights and sockets etc I can just apply it to any situation. I'm now not sure it actually works like that.

So what changed? I GOT A JOB. I'm on a 2 week trial for a potential traineeship/apprenticeship with a bigish (18+ blokes) firm in my area.

I like to think I'm alright at the basics already - I could rewire a house if I really needed to. But my it's been a shock and a real eye opener as to just how you cannot replace experience.

So day 1, I get sent to a massive factory which makes car parts and I'm helping put in 120 SWA. This stuff as I'm sure you know is the thickness of a 500ml coke bottle and heavy to boot.

I'm working in these two modules that have been unplugged and moved to a different part of the factory and then have to be connected back up again. They're in welding bays. It's absolutely manky. I came home looking like I'd been down a pit. Stuff isn't labelled up properly. There are cables missing. There are DB's all over the place in this factory, and also cabinets full of module switching, ethernet, and communication cables that all had to be sorted. There was electric shuttters. There was masses of massive cables that had to be tied properly and neatly. There was tonnes of unistrut and trunking as well as tray that needed to be installed and fitted correctly.

Day 3 I'm at a hospice doing emergency lighting tests. Then we go to a rented property and sort out some snagging - FCU's, light fittings, bathroom extractor, outside switched light.

Day 4 I'm at an airport putting in sockets and lights in conduit.

Day 5 I'm at a garden centre replacing lights.

This is just the first week. I now don't think it's possible to go from a short course into this big bad world of electrics with so many different kinds of jobs and be able to know what you're doing, qualified on paper or not. Putting in new cables is easy. Figuring out what someone else has done can be difficult.

If we ignore the technical aspect of the job there are just so many different fixtures and fittings available and they all get fit in slightly different ways. There's just no way. You cannot learn this from a short course.

I always thought those who poo-poo'd these courses were elitist jerks but I now realise why - they knew something I didn't. They're in the game, they're doing the work, they see it day in day out. Youtube house bashers make it look fairly straightforward and I still believe that when it comes to single phase domestic, it's still probably possible to do a short course and build up experience on smaller jobs.

But to be a proper electrician I now believe that you cannot become a proper well rounded electrician without actually DOING the job.

To those of you in similar situations to what I was - don't give up. I've been trying to get someone to take me on since I was 25 in 2012 and have had no joy. I'm now 9 years older and someone finally decided to give me a shot.

Keep plugging away and if you need to, enrol at college and try to convince someone to take you on on the back of that. Think twice about dropping thousands on short training which is going to leave you absolutely stumped at the first sign of a problem you're not familiar with.

Working on the job around other people who can show you the ropes is invaluable. I've already learned so much in my first week and I thought I knew most of it already. I knew jack. But I now have people to ask when I'm not sure, instead of trying to guess it myself.

Now the real learning begins.

Thanks for reading.

Welcome to the real world of being a well rounded electrician. No one ever side it was easy. Nothing and I mean nothing beats on the job experience especially the huge variety of working in manufacturing facility’s to doing domestic work. I wish you the best of luck and don’t just throw in the towel. A lot of electricians can’t or want to help you learn. I know going to an auto manufacturing facility is a huge awakening. Don’t look at the big picture because it can be overwhelming. Take it one day at a time and never give up.

 

[Electrics]

One of the best electricians I ever employed had one of the worst references ever and quite a few with glowing references were soon found out and fired. So sorry to shoot down your theory but you can't depend on references
Also I'm not sure your business model stacks up if you take into account all the overheads including the non productive time for possibly 2 people at times while things like the paperwork is being done

You're basically saying to start a business and employ someone you also have to be an expert capable of doing the job yourself. Sorry but that's clearly nonsense.

I could put ads in the paper now - get some jobs in and just advertise for blokes and get them on any work that comes in. It's really fairly simple but imo some on this forum just love to be contrarian for the sake of it.

The extent of lateral thinking when it comes to things like this is also lacking. Where's the ambition?

Men from old Europe without a penny in their pocket went to America and became wealthy by taking initiative.

What i've suggested here is not outlandish at all. Get some organisational skills, line up some jobs, get some qualified men on them. You're the bossman, you're also qualified on paper and you tell them that actually you'll be giving them a lift as a mate but want them to do the lion's share of the work.

Where's the problem?

OP is qualified on paper. It's hardly a stretch to imagine he could start up a business and employ staff like thousands of people do but also jump on the tools himself.

 

[James]

You're basically saying to start a business and employ someone you also have to be an expert capable of doing the job yourself. Sorry but that's clearly nonsense.

I could put ads in the paper now - get some jobs in and just advertise for blokes and get them on any work that comes in. It's really fairly simple but imo some on this forum just love to be contrarian for the sake of it.

The extent of lateral thinking when it comes to things like this is also lacking. Where's the ambition?

Men from old Europe without a penny in their pocket went to America and became wealthy by taking initiative.

What i've suggested here is not outlandish at all. Get some organisational skills, line up some jobs, get some qualified men on them. You're the bossman, you're also qualified on paper and you tell them that actually you'll be giving them a lift as a mate but want them to do the lion's share of the work.

Where's the problem?

OP is qualified on paper. It's hardly a stretch to imagine he could start up a business and employ staff like thousands of people do but also jump on the tools himself.

Life is full of chances and "chancers"

If you believe you have the mindset, the ambition and the skills to make a go of it, then do so.

There will be hurdles to jump, problems to solve and sleepless nights worrying about things.

for me it has taken about 10 years to get from an ambitious person who wanted to make it work being self employed to someone who has managed to make a proper living out of it.

I went from a comfortable job at over 20K about 15 years ago to a poor self employed person overnight with a handful of contacts and enough work to see me through the week.

I can tell you that there have been tough times, like counting the coins i had in the cup holder to see if I could manage to buy a pack of chicken to do a stir fry or if it was 2 tins of beans and a loaf of bread.

dodging the council tax collector and the tv licence inspector whilst trying to figure out how to pay the most important bills that would keep me working like the van insurance and my suppliers bills.

Starting a business is easy, keeping it running is difficult, pulling a living wage from it in the first few months/years is bloody hard and can take years off your life.

I have managed, but many people fail, I could still fail in the future if I don't keep on top of it.

There are some rule of thumb figures that will help you out in deciding if it is right for you.

Have enough money in the bank to fund your lifestyle for 3 months with no other income before you take the leap into self employment.

I am not suggesting you will have no work for 3 months but at the beginning, outgoings WILL outstrip incomings.

If you are going to employ someone to work for you, have enough free cash to pay them for at least 2 months at any time.

the people who you employ (directly or as sub contactors) also have partners, children, bills etc. not being able to pay them may push them into hardship and it will (should) play heavily on your mind when you cant pay them in full or on time.

Do not ever let your insurance Lapse, the day you do is the day someone will be injured and it will make you bankrupt.

But the thing is, only you can tell if you have got what it takes to go it alone.
Best of luck in your adventure (genuinely)

 

[UNG]

You're basically saying to start a business and employ someone you also have to be an expert capable of doing the job yourself. Sorry but that's clearly nonsense.

I could put ads in the paper now - get some jobs in and just advertise for blokes and get them on any work that comes in. It's really fairly simple but imo some on this forum just love to be contrarian for the sake of it.

The extent of lateral thinking when it comes to things like this is also lacking. Where's the ambition?

Men from old Europe without a penny in their pocket went to America and became wealthy by taking initiative.

What i've suggested here is not outlandish at all. Get some organisational skills, line up some jobs, get some qualified men on them. You're the bossman, you're also qualified on paper and you tell them that actually you'll be giving them a lift as a mate but want them to do the lion's share of the work.

Where's the problem?

OP is qualified on paper. It's hardly a stretch to imagine he could start up a business and employ staff like thousands of people do but also jump on the tools himself.

And how much cash do you have or how large a loan / overdraft will the bank let you have to invest in your project

I have experience of a business startup exactly as you are suggesting as the skilled guy and unless you have a big bucket load of cash chances are the skilled guy ends up as I did owning 50% of the business after 3 - 4 months during which time 2 other electricians had been taken on and we were looking to take on another, the company had a large daywork contract from day 1 as well as a few other contracts for the electrics on some new build and refurb commercial properties so there was little or no dead time to cover

I think it would be difficult to do it now, we had a lot of work on the books at the start up and even then cashflow was very tight for the first few months and most days it was 12 -14 hours 7 days a week for the first 4 months

And to suggest my past comments are contrarian I find quite insulting when I have real world experience what you propose

"You're the bossman" has a certain arrogance about it which you clearly demonstrate on here, I think you would find it difficult to keep the good staff you would need to make it work

 

[ipf]

There's no rule that says i need to be an expert in electrics to start an electrical company. Someone who's just good at admin could do that, and employ someone who knows what they're talking about and pay them a wage to do the hands on stuff and pricing etc.

I had a friend who started a company outsourcing coding to bigger companies. He knew nothing about programming and simply hired people who did - he was just a businessman starting a business.

No reason you couldn't do that as the business owner and then also work in your own company as a mate.

It'd be a faff to set up but obviously it's doable.

I couldn't take being the 'boss' and having to ask an employee for advice about doing my job. It'd put me on the road to rack and ruin....?

 

[James]

I couldn't take being the 'boss' and having to ask an employee for advice about doing my job. It'd put me on the road to rack and ruin....?

Try marriage, it gives me excellent training in being the boss of the house but having to check that what i am doing is the right way to do it!!!

 

[timhoward]

Try marriage, it gives me excellent training in being the boss of the house but having to check that what i am doing is the right way to do it!!!

When I got married, we agreed I'd take the major decisions, and my lovely wife would take the minor decisions. It's worked brilliantly. In 21 years there haven't been any major decisions.

 

[Electrics]

"You're the bossman" has a certain arrogance about it which you clearly demonstrate on here, I think you would find it difficult to keep the good staff you would need to make it work

Nah, there's no arrogance from me. You're misunderstanding the tone which is understandable since it's text so hard to judge.

Also an FYI - i ran my own very successful general building company from age 17-29 before i moved to Europe, so i also know what i'm talking about.