C&G 2365 & The 'Express' Route

[ConcertTouring]

Hi all,

Long time lurker first time poster.

I’ve got a few questions surrounding those short courses you normally see everyone winging about but from a slightly different angle to that I’ve seen discussed elsewhere on the forums. I’m well aware that the courses offered by the likes of TradeSkills4U to name but one company and not necessarily wishing to single them out aren’t looked on in the most favourable light by those who’ve been in the industry for a number of years (for obvious reason in my opinion), I’m more interested in how the industry views the advice/instruction that’s been offered in those courses?

A little background about me, I’ve been working in entertainments for the last 8 years as a touring lighting technician working on the Spice Girls and Kylie Minogue tours to name but two, what strikes me is the sometimes lack of knowledge people in the field I operate in have when it comes to electricity, sometimes even in the higher echelons of the sector. I’ve been looking at these short courses not to get my foot in the door in the domestic market but to shore up my own knowledge when working electricity, often I find myself working with multiple 400a three phase systems and vast electrical distribution etc very comfortably, personally it comforts me knowing I have that bit of paper behind me just to back myself up.

My question being, you as the professionals if you take the experience required to be employed by yourself out of the question, how do you view the course content?

I should point out to those who aren’t so familiar with the entertainment industry that it does operate in a similar fashion to the domestic electrical market in regards to training, all on site passed down and supervised (to an extent) but I do think that sometimes things at the lower end of the market can get a little cowboy.

Unsure if I’ve explained my question adequately, but please if you also have any questions for me, fire away.

 

[Vortigern]

I really think that you have to have some kind of knowledge on a practical level to truly find the worth of those courses and benefit from them. They present the basic science necessary to function theoretically in the environment of on site work. The problem I think arises when, as is usual, you meet circumstances which are not text book. E.G. A very well qualified trainee with me was tasked to report to me on the bonding in a domestic property. After thirty minutes not finding the stop cock and gas entry point I assisted. The point being on a picture it is one thing in site conditions, it is so different for each property.
If you have the kind of experience you describe then indeed I think you could hit the ground running and be able to use it in your work as well as absorb the training somatically as you have the hands on experience to relate the knowledge to absorb and confirm and increase your competency.

 

[davesparks]

I have one foot in the entertainment industry and the other in the electrical industry. I have met very few, if any, people working in the entertainment industry who really have a good understanding of the basics of electricity.
It would take a lot more than a short course to help those people, they need a lot longer to learn the basics because they first need to 'unlearn' everything they are currently so certain of.

I have rarely, if ever, known anyone take due regard of the repulsion forces between powerlock cables, grouping factors for any cables, correct setting of variable RCDs, discrimination.

The gradual adoption is BS7909 is starting to bring about a little awareness of electrical safety but I'd say the entertainment industry has many years of improvement ahead of it yet.

 

[Rockingit]

I have one foot in the entertainment industry and the other in the electrical industry. I have met very few, if any, people working in the entertainment industry who really have a good understanding of the basics of electricity.
It would take a lot more than a short course to help those people, they need a lot longer to learn the basics because they first need to 'unlearn' everything they are currently so certain of.

I have rarely, if ever, known anyone take due regard of the repulsion forces between powerlock cables, grouping factors for any cables, correct setting of variable RCDs, discrimination.

The gradual adoption is BS7909 is starting to bring about a little awareness of electrical safety but I'd say the entertainment industry has many years of improvement ahead of it yet.

Totally. And I've seen an alarming increase of people in the ents world claiming to be 'qualified' simply because they've spent a day doing a 7909 session or spanked some dosh on a Part P course..... presented with a proper challenge and in my experience they become more dangerous than an 'unskilled' ceeform plugger!

 

[davesparks]

Totally. And I've seen an alarming increase of people in the ents world claiming to be 'qualified' simply because they've spent a day doing a 7909 session or spanked some dosh on a Part P course..... presented with a proper challenge and in my experience they become more dangerous than an 'unskilled' ceeform plugger!

"I've been doing this 30 years so don't go telling me I'm wrong"

"Wind the RCD out if it trips"

"just bypass the RCD if it trips"

"it follows the path of least reisistance"

"earthing takes the dangerous voltage away if a cable rubs on the truss and touches it"

"put it in a figure of 8 instead of a coil so it cancels out the magnetic field and doesn't get hot"

 

[ConcertTouring]

If you have the kind of experience you describe then indeed I think you could hit the ground running and be able to use it in your work as well as absorb the training somatically as you have the hands on experience to relate the knowledge to absorb and confirm and increase your competency.

I totally agree with you here, to do a course as I’ve described above I’d be exceedingly aware of the holes in my knowledge, especially when it comes to a more domestic or permanent install. I’m not wanting to currently diversify and go down the domestic route, I’m wanting to backup that knowledge I’ve learned from years of doing it (either the right way or the wrong way) with that classroom environment and supervision, essentially just to become more confident. Like has been said previously you get the people who’ll say ‘I’ve been doing this for X years don’t tell me what to do’ and that’s the kind of person I seriously don’t want to be!

The gradual adoption is BS7909 is starting to bring about a little awareness of electrical safety but I'd say the entertainment industry has many years of improvement ahead of it yet.

I wholeheartedly agree, being someone who’s done a BS7909 two day classroom session there’s far more to it, the entertainments sector is only going to eventually get far more regulated, I’d quite like to remain ahead of that curve by gaining as much classroom knowledge that I can apply.

The main reason behind me wanting to do those short courses is that for the majority of the year I’m away on tour for 5/6months at a time, as much as I’d like to do more full time college study, its sadly not possible for me to do.

Totally. And I've seen an alarming increase of people in the ents world claiming to be 'qualified' simply because they've spent a day doing a 7909 session or spanked some dosh on a Part P course..... presented with a proper challenge and in my experience they become more dangerous than an 'unskilled' ceeform plugger!

With the industry covering the entire world I’ve seen some very dodgy practices (especially in Russia!!), but ‘spanking some dosh’ sometimes could be what’s needed, I presume you’re implying that a specific course is perhaps making someone perhaps a little too confident?

 

[Lister1987]

If you done events, why not pursue that rabbit? As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but 7909 is several courses? A-D? Have you done all those? D I believe is to 7909 what 2396 is to 7671 (Design)?

Would have thought there was more money (pre-covid) in event facilities management than domestic house bashing? Could be a stone to commercial/industry as they can use a lot of temporary power systems/equipment in one form or another.

 

[ConcertTouring]

There's a 3 day BS7909 course thats C&G 'approved', I forget the correct term offered by James Eade. Although I think the course content is good it only skims the surface, a lot of large location film companies are starting to ask for 2365 Level 3.

You're right that there's probably more money in events, but the domestic side of things especially the qualifications on the face of it gives a good all round view on both single and 3 phase applications, which is why I've been looking at this.

 

[davesparks]

If you done events, why not pursue that rabbit? As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but 7909 is several courses? A-D? Have you done all those? D I believe is to 7909 what 2396 is to 7671 (Design)?

Would have thought there was more money (pre-covid) in event facilities management than domestic house bashing? Could be a stone to commercial/industry as they can use a lot of temporary power systems/equipment in one form or another.

You can't pursue events work at the moment as there pretty much isn't any, the events industry is still pretty much shut down with some areas not anticipating opening again until February at the earliest.

BS7909 is a British standard, not a set of courses.
There are a few different courses out there that will give you a certificate to say you have attended or some will include an exam of some sort, I think there is even a C&G one. As far as I know there are no 'levels' or 'stages' of an A - D variety or any other.

Event facilities management is very different to working on events, it is more akin to other facilities management.

 

[Rockingit]

"I've been doing this 30 years so don't go telling me I'm wrong"

"Wind the RCD out if it trips"

"just bypass the RCD if it trips"

"it follows the path of least reisistance"

"earthing takes the dangerous voltage away if a cable rubs on the truss and touches it"

"put it in a figure of 8 instead of a coil so it cancels out the magnetic field and doesn't get hot"

You missed out the real gems like how RCD's in a row will sense each other or how gennie's don't need earth rods, or, or, or.......... We could probably write a book on them. In fact, maybe we should! Anyway, sod this, where's catering?
[automerge]1598897009[/automerge]

There's a 3 day BS7909 course thats C&G 'approved', I forget the correct term offered by James Eade. Although I think the course content is good it only skims the surface, a lot of large location film companies are starting to ask for 2365 Level 3.

You're right that there's probably more money in events, but the domestic side of things especially the qualifications on the face of it gives a good all round view on both single and 3 phase applications, which is why I've been looking at this.

A domestic installer course achieves one principal objective: To extract as much money as possible out of your pocket in the fastest way whilst 'teaching' you as little as possible.

I've run into several AV/LX/PA/Backline out on tours, all of whom have been great techs (well, most of them! ), who've all been larging up themselves as 'qualified' sparks having done these short courses.... until I casually get into some tech talk on some excuse and it quickly reveals that they actually know jack ----. But the alarming part is that they don't know/realise that they know so little.

 

[davesparks]

You missed out the real gems like how RCD's in a row will sense each other or how gennie's don't need earth rods, or, or, or.......... We could probably write a book on them. In fact, maybe we should! Anyway, sod this, where's catering?

Of course, you don't need earth rods any more because generators have RCDs now!

I've not heard the one about RCDs sensing each other? Sounds a bit suspicious if you ask me!

Catering? They are all busy plugging 20 tea urns in to 'just a couple of 13A's'

 

[ConcertTouring]

A domestic installer course achieves one principal objective: To extract as much money as possible out of your pocket in the fastest way whilst 'teaching' you as little as possible.

I've run into several AV/LX/PA/Backline out on tours, all of whom have been great techs (well, most of them! ), who've all been larging up themselves as 'qualified' sparks having done these short courses.... until I casually get into some tech talk on some excuse and it quickly reveals that they actually know jack ----. But the alarming part is that they don't know/realise that they know so little.

Haha, like with all education, thankfully when I was at university I was lucky enough to complete my course before all the unlucky souls have had to start paying 9 grand a year! Daylight robbery if you ask me.

A lot of supply companies are now starting to ask for certifications, what would your advice to me or anyone else looking to esentially 'prove their worth' be, lets focus more on entertainment. Sadly just explaining what you know just doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[davesparks]

A lot of supply companies are now starting to ask for certifications, what would your advice to me or anyone else looking to esentially 'prove their worth' be, lets focus more on entertainment. Sadly just explaining what you know just doesn't cut it anymore.

What certificates are they asking for?

 

[Rockingit]

What certificates are they asking for?

I've only ever seen BS7909 being asked for, which as we've established doesn't actually mean a lot in real terms! I know certain 'brand leading' temporary power companies who send blokes out as crew chiefs who've never spent a day in a classroom since they were sixteen......

 

[davesparks]

I've only ever seen BS7909 being asked for, which as we've established doesn't actually mean a lot in real terms! I know certain 'brand leading' temporary power companies who send blokes out as crew chiefs who've never spent a day in a classroom since they were sixteen......

Brand leaders, yeah, well, British Gas are 'brand leaders' too aren't they?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Talking of events, with Glastonbury cancelled this year it meant there was a nice surplus of H07RNF in the suppliers in the south west. when its on, you cant get it for love or money.
Plenty of other outdoor swithch gear on the shelves too.
I know a well experienced spark who covers the festival for some insurance company and basically has a good time and is there in case something goes wrong. his job is get it back working asap and check things for anything too dodgy to cover the insurance firms backside. the stories he tells me about how badly wired some of the stuff is and poorly put together is shocking...
The funniest was the solar powered tent for some reading thing. only thing being the panels weren't connected up and it was run off a generator like much else down there!

 

[ConcertTouring]

Sadly it kind of seems then it's either take two years out to do on site apprentice style learning, or just read a lot of books from what I'm seeing here if those short courses are looked down on so much.

 

[Rockingit]

Talking of events, with Glastonbury cancelled this year it meant there was a nice surplus of H07RNF in the suppliers in the south west. when its on, you cant get it for love or money.
Plenty of other outdoor swithch gear on the shelves too.
I know a well experienced spark who covers the festival for some insurance company and basically has a good time and is there in case something goes wrong. his job is get it back working asap and check things for anything too dodgy to cover the insurance firms backside. the stories he tells me about how badly wired some of the stuff is and poorly put together is shocking...
The funniest was the solar powered tent for some reading thing. only thing being the panels weren't connected up and it was run off a generator like much else down there!

Knowing Glastonbury very well, plus all the power teams (and being part of them on occasions) what you've just described doesn't quite seem right, though it's become such a behemoth in recent years that anything is possible. Most of us try our hardest to have something else to do that 'weekend' and avoid the place like the plague!

 

[ConcertTouring]

Knowing Glastonbury very well, plus all the power teams (and being part of them on occasions) what you've just described doesn't quite seem right, though it's become such a behemoth in recent years that anything is possible. Most of us try our hardest to have something else to do that 'weekend' and avoid the place like the plague!

I was about to say that doesn't reflect my experience of Glastonbury either, I mainly end up around the pyramid and John Peel stages, everything around there is always rockin'

 

[Rockingit]

I've not once ever managed to make it as far as John Peel, I tend to get stuck down in the naughty corner on night shift. Odd that.