Death penalty

[trev]

What do you think the response of the hundreds of potential murder victims would be?

We're all potential murder victims mate so I'm not sure what you're getting at there

 

[Tiny Spark]

What you are actually doing here is introducing a hierarchy of victims. Why should one victim be worth the death penalty and the other a a life sentence. The Garda (police in republic of ireland) lobbied for a similar approach, and to make the punishnent for the murder of a guard more severe than a civillian. Public opinion soon had this idea shelved.

(N.B. i realise this is another irish example but i feel this is a relevant to the thread)

From what I understand the Garda and the Civiys over there dont seem to see eye to eye at the best of times so this does not really suprise me.

 

[trev]

I did not move the goal posts, The scenario you gave was thus:



That sounds more like tresspass to me.

Now if you had said you had just chased me out of your house with a cricket bat at 2am in your underpants then I would of treated it as a burglary.
In which case I would not blame you for smashing me around the head with a bat.

Would you deserve to be hanged? No I dont think so as I would of brought it on myself by scaring the hell out of you and your family when I broke into your house at 2am with a knife in my hand.

Ok I'll rephrase Mr Pedant
I've beaten you to death because you burgled my house at 2AM, the knife was dropped in your haste to leave when I came downstairs brandishing the bat. All other facts in the scenario remain the same.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Ok I'll rephrase Mr Pedant
I've beaten you to death because you burgled my house at 2AM. All other facts in the scenario remain the same.

See previous reply to said scenario

 

[trev]

See previous reply to said scenario

I don't understand how you can accept the legal double standard and as Rapparree said, the hierarchy of victimhood.
Never mind though.
What about the 2nd scenario? Let's change it a bit though, the person I unjustifiably beat to death isn't you. It's your son.
NB I have no reason to suspect either you or your family are miscreants

 

[rapparee]

From what I understand the Garda and the Civiys over there dont seem to see eye to eye at the best of times so this does not really suprise me.

What??? You are a bit off the mark. Certainly they will be ridiculed by some sections of society but sure isn't every police service.

 

[Tiny Spark]

We could throw scenarios at each other all day and night but it would not change anything.

In short I am a realist, There will always be murder and crime that is something that can not be changed as long as we inhabit the earth.
We will destroy ourselfs because we are a destructive species and thats just what we do.

But there are some people in this world (several been named in this thread) that are truly evil.
Those individuals serve no purpose to mankind, They can only bring pain and suffering of which there is enough in this ****ed up world.
Those people should be removed from the earth for the good of the rest of us.

Be honest, If there was a choice between Spending money on someone like Ian huntley to keep him fed, watered and behind bars.
Or spending money on say the NHS to save the life of a child which would you prefer?

I know I would put a bullet in Huntleys head every time.

Is someone who beats a guy to death because he caught someone in his house a murderer? Yes no doubt.
Is he evil, No.
Could he be useful to the human race? Who knows.

That is how I look at it, on a case by case basis as any sort of criminal case should be.

You cant paint everyone with a single brush.

 

[Tiny Spark]

What??? You are a bit off the mark. Certainly they will be ridiculed by some sections of society but sure isn't every police service.

Dont get me wrong, I dont live there and its been a long time since I was over there (sadly).
But the amount of stories and complaints I hear from people who do would sugest to me that they are far from appreciated LOL

That being said I dont think the Police over here have a great time either, Occupational hazzard I guess.

 

[RogertheBodger]

We're all potential murder victims mate so I'm not sure what you're getting at there

It's explained in my post 174 Trev.

It's a counter to your question asking me what Barry George would think, I have no idea what Barry George would think, If you want a guess, Apart from being arrested in the first place, He would be bloody glad it turned out like it did, if the death penalty had been in force presumably he would have had the same result, in which case he would be even more happy, had he been executed then proved innocent we would all be unhappy, and his name would have come up even more in this thread.

I get it Trev, I get what the debate is about, if we can't move on there is no point in going around in circles.

 

[trev]

So you'd have done the same to Barry George then? You'd have had to. He was a waste of skin from the evidence that was presented to the court, a fantasist who would never be any use to society.
Some time after you put the bullet in his head or pulled the lever you find out he's completely exonerated.
Could you live with that or do you view it as collateral damage?

 

[Tiny Spark]

So you'd have done the same to Barry George then? You'd have had to. He was a waste of skin from the evidence that was presented to the court, a fantasist who would never be any use to society.
Some time after you put the bullet in his head or pulled the lever you find out he's completely exonerated.
Could you live with that or do you view it as collateral damage?

Cant comment dont know the bloke or the case.

But if he was Exonerated then obviously he was not prosecuted properly in the first place.

 

[trev]

Cant comment dont know the bloke or the case.

But if he was Exonerated then obviously he was not prosecuted properly in the first place.

He was the bloke who was convicted of Suzanne Dando's killing and later completely cleared

 

[Tiny Spark]

Ahhh yes I remember now, Dont know much about it all the same.

I do remember though that the evidence was shaky at best and that she was high profile so it was "rushed".

As said previously in the thread by numerous people, For things like that to convict and put to death the evidence has to be rock solid.

This is not one of those cases, So life in prison would of been more apt, Of course it would of been better still if the police had done their job properly instead of being rushed into a arrest by public outcry.

 

[RogertheBodger]

So you'd have done the same to Barry George then? You'd have had to. He was a waste of skin from the evidence that was presented to the court, a fantasist who would never be any use to society.
Some time after you put the bullet in his head or pulled the lever you find out he's completely exonerated.
Could you live with that or do you view it as collateral damage?

Why would I do anything to Barry George? Can the Judge in the trial live with it is the question you should be asking. So we are not moving on?

You are putting words in my mouth now mate. as you have done several times, you are asking the same question over and over, lots of posters have offered up different opinions in the debate you wanted and you haven't expanded on them.

The idea of a good debate is not to state your position and then just keep on repeating it in the face of all opposing viewpoints, I have asked you lots of questions, as others have, which you haven't addressed.

For instance I wanted to talk about the value of the death penalty as a deterrence, which is a valid point.

 

[rapparee]

As said previously in the thread by numerous people, For things like that to convict and put to death the evidence has to be rock solid.

You have to understand for any criminal conviction ALL evidence has to be rock solid. Even stealing a 10p mixup out of a shop has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt, not just capital offences

Rock solid

 

[trev]

That last one you replied to wasn't directed at you Roger it was for Tiny who mentioned putting a bullet in Huntley's head. I've replied with my view on the deterrent value mate, I really don't think it is one for the reasons I've stated. Look at how well publicised the Texan use of the death penalty is, people still get sent to death row though. I'll accept your point about how any statistic on this can be manipulated because it can never be proved. As you say, if something doesn't happen how can you quantify it in any statistic
Which of your questions have I dodged? I'll happily answer them.

 

[Tiny Spark]

You have to understand for any criminal conviction ALL evidence has to be rock solid. Even stealing a 10p mixup out of a shop has to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt, not just capital offences

Rock solid

Sorry is that a joke or do you actually believe that?

Not sure about ireland but our Justice system is pretty screwed up.

You regularly have people quite literally getting away with murder, And sadly you still get people convicted and sent down for nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My previously mentioned friend being a prime example.

 

[Tiny Spark]

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Alot of statistics on the does the deterent thing work or not are based on very old cases where criminals had a better chance of getting away with things so they figured it was a worthwhile risk.

For some I guess it payed off for others not so well.

Without bringing it back and logging what happends over a few years its nigh on impossible to say wether it works or not.

 

[BES]

The question of the death penalty being a deterrent has shown , especially in the USA as not making any difference if people commit murder or not. Infact during the period when the death penalty was suspended from 1967 to 1972 the number of murders fell.
The death pentaly is and will never be a deterrent. Most murders are not premeditated.
But putting a person to death who sat down and decided I'm going to kill someone today and enjoys it so decides to go out next day and do it again and again or a person who's a bit ****ed of with the world and walks into a school a mows down 20 children or they don't like what their goverments polices on certain things so parks a van full of explosives which destroys a building killing hundreds these should die for their crimes.

 

[7029 dave]

Of course you are right, it never has been an deterrent, just an eye for an eye, but we all know right from wrong, if anybody is prepared to take an life they should forfeit theirs.