Don't you just love the SNP......

[YoungScud]

er no. Really busy at the moment so only get a real chance to chip in when I get home.......

So are you in favour of the UK scrapping the barnet formula?

Yes. I want it not to be needed.

 

[Midwest]

First of all, to the moronic suggestion that the rest of the Uk should have taken part in the referendum, not only did every mainstream party band together to persuade the Scottish electorate to say No, but so did the media en masse. If I'd believed for one minute that there would have been a Yes result, I might well have found myself taking the wrong, but pragmatic view that that should happen. Why wrong? Well, has there been a single case in history of a nation exercising its right to self determination (note the word 'self') while involving another nation in the decision?

Finally, you can portray any future intention by an elected Scottish government as keeping voting until we get the right result if you want, but that smacks of tabloid thinking. If we are to maintain any pretence of democracy, we have to accept that people change, and that a future Scottish government, given a mandate, has every legal and constitutional right to hold another referendum. The responsibility of any government is to represent its people, to try to gauge their will and respond accordingly. Of course, this does not mean that we can expect another referendum within the next few years, but it would be naive to expect that things don't change.

I would agree that Northern Island, Wales & England shouldn't have taken part in the Scottish referendum. But it would have been interesting to know what the peoples of those countries thought, as Scotland leaving the UK, would have an impact on them. Perhaps the 'mainstream parties & media en masse supporting the No campaign', was some sort of guage of that? Would that be financial or selfish reason for that, or is it purely they do not want the UK to divide?

It's the right of the peoples of Scotland to have a referendum, but they would to be some significant change for that to take place, otherwise it would seem that the minority rule the majority.

 

[Octopus]

To save a separate post, I'd like to answer some of the less well-thought out jibes bandied around while I'm at it. First of all, to the moronic suggestion that the rest of the Uk should have taken part in the referendum, not only did every mainstream party band together to persuade the Scottish electorate to say No, but so did the media en masse.

A 'non-city' Scot

Hum. The SNP are saying that when the EU vote comes the "outcome" needs to be a "yes" in all 4 countries, so more thamn 50% in every country - so how does that fit with your logic?

Problem with the SNP is that they are so insular they have no empathy for anything, or anyone else.

 

[sean_ork]

It would have been interesting to know what the peoples of those countries thought, as Scotland leaving the UK, would have an impact on them. Perhaps the 'mainstream parties & media en masse supporting the No campaign', was some sort of guage of that?

In just a few sentences you've explained and illustrated why there are so many folks with such misguided views, on not just this subject - but its nothing new, the media have been helping whoever they want to win elections for a decades.

Sadly, there's far to many that use headlines and media articles to form their opinions, sheeplike.

 

[andyb]

I wonder if those who think that the rest of the UK should of had a vote in the Scotish referendum believe the rest of Europe should have a vote in our in/out referendum.

 

[YoungScud]

Hum. The SNP are saying that when the EU vote comes the "outcome" needs to be a "yes" in all 4 countries, so more thamn 50% in every country - so how does that fit with your logic?

Problem with the SNP is that they are so insular they have no empathy for anything, or anyone else.

Again, this has nothing to do with anything said by Nicola Sturgeon. What she said was that if there were some kind of political event which changed the nature of the relationship, a 'game changer' if you like, then the party wouid feel it had the right to include a further referendum commitment in its manifesto for the upcoming elections. Were that the case, they would only feel they had a mandate to go ahead if they were elected on that manifesto. That seems to me to be perfectly right and proper. When asked if a UK wide vote to leave the EU were to happen, while Scotland voted to remain, would that be an example of the kind of thing she was thinking of, she replied, it might well be. This is all predicated on the fact that she gauges the mood of the Scottish people to be that we wish to remain in the EU, that seems equally reasonable to me. It might be worth pointing out that a commitment to a further referendum in the next Parliament is very unlikely, there's an element of too many people being fooled by the MSM.

Midwest, I think you can take that as an answer to your post too. The nature of our democracy at least is that the SNp consider that they can only have another referendum if they give a commitment to oe in the manifesto and that they then have a majority. It's also worh noting that Scotland, with a mature form of democracy far more representative of all views than is the case in the UK, is far less likely to find the minority ruling over the majority. Reference the UK General Eletion results last May. I rest my case.

 

[Octopus]

With respect the in/out EU vote, if the UK votes to leave, would we get our 200 mile fishing rights back? That would help countless communities and villages and towns around the UK.

I think it was the fact that Iceland would HAVE to give up its fishing rights was a key factor for them to cease their talks to join the EU.

 

[Octopus]

Again, this has nothing to do with anything said by Nicola Sturgeon. What she said was that if there were some kind of political event which changed the nature of the relationship, a 'game changer' if you like, then the party wouid feel it had the right to include a further referendum commitment in its manifesto for the upcoming elections. Were that the case, they would only feel they had a mandate to go ahead if they were elected on that manifesto. That seems to me to be perfectly right and proper. When asked if a UK wide vote to leave the EU were to happen, while Scotland voted to remain, would that be an example of the kind of thing she was thinking of, she replied, it might well be. This is all predicated on the fact that she gauges the mood of the Scottish people to be that we wish to remain in the EU, that seems equally reasonable to me. It might be worth pointing out that a commitment to a further referendum in the next Parliament is very unlikely, there's an element of too many people being fooled by the MSM.

Midwest, I think you can take that as an answer to your post too. The nature of our democracy at least is that the SNp consider that they can only have another referendum if they give a commitment to oe in the manifesto and that they then have a majority. It's also worh noting that Scotland, with a mature form of democracy far more representative of all views than is the case in the UK, is far less likely to find the minority ruling over the majority. Reference the UK General Eletion results last May. I rest my case.

Oh yes it has...... She has said that SHE wants the ability to block the UK exit if the Scots vote to stay in the EU

 

[sean_ork]

With respect the in/out EU vote, if the UK votes to leave, would we get our 200 mile fishing rights back? That would help countless communities and villages and towns around the UK.

I think it was the fact that Iceland would HAVE to give up its fishing rights was a key factor for them to cease their talks to join the EU.

I'm sure we would be happy with any deal to allows all to make beneficial use of whatever lies below their geographically adjacent waters.

Seems like a good deal to me.

 

[sean_ork]

Oh yes it has...... She has said that SHE wants the ability to block the UK exit if the Scots vote to stay in the EU

Wrong, she's stated that ALL Nations have to vote to leave, meaning we can't be dragged out .....

Scots want to stay in EU, as the rest of Britain wants to say goodbye, says new poll (From Herald Scotland)

 

[YoungScud]

She said no such thing, given that she has no right to demand it. What she did say, in 2014, before she became FM, was that exit should require all four members of the UK should vote to leave. Cameron, in his supercilious way, simply stated that we are on UK. We are not. We are two sovereign nations, one principality and a province. He can pretend there would be no constitutional crisis as a result, but rest assued that, in the event of a vote to leave, will trigger one. It's not hard to see, with a pretty solid majority of Scots wanting to stay in the EU, how an easy case for another referendum can be made. Of course, that still requires the political will of Scots to succeed.

 

[janner43]

She said no such thing, given that she has no right to demand it. What she did say, in 2014, before she became FM, was that exit should require all four members of the UK should vote to leave. Cameron, in his supercilious way, simply stated that we are on UK. We are not. We are two sovereign nations, one principality and a province. He can pretend there would be no constitutional crisis as a result, but rest assued that, in the event of a vote to leave, will trigger one. It's not hard to see, with a pretty solid majority of Scots wanting to stay in the EU, how an easy case for another referendum can be made. Of course, that still requires the political will of Scots to succeed.

Historically you are correct - at least as far as recent history is concerned, some more recent than others. Two sovereign nations (England & Scotland), one principality (Wales) and one province (NI).

However, Mr. Cameron was factually correct. We are one United Kingdom - legally, functionally, militarily and financially. Devolution was not given to Scotland, Wales & NI because they had a right to it (although their populations did vote in favour of it) but simply because it was politically expedient so to do. I am in favour of devolution - it is pragmatic, democratic, brings accountability and greater benefit to localities.

When the EU referendum is delivered, it will be interesting to note how different areas of our United Kingdom do vote. Of course it will. As someone who has lived close to Cornwall for all my life, I see first hand in microcosm what an Independence Party looks like. Believe it or not, there is a faction in Cornwall who want independence for that small county. Yes I know it beggars belief, but they are passionate about it.

In our democratic culture, (although legislation in the past 50 years has bizarrely both weakened and strengthened the following)
Everyone has a right to an opinion.
Everyone has the right to express that opinion - theoretically without needing to fear any repercussions for holding their opinion.
Everyone has the right to one vote.

As such, we - as the population of the United Kingdom - will express our collective will over the future of our nation where it pertains to continued membership of the EU. That collective decision of the individual will, has now and will for ever hold exponentially greater moral and legal weight than any alleged will of a sub section of that global (as in UK wide) population. Whatever the outcome.

Personally, as things stand now, as almost a lifelong opposer of membership of the EU, I find my opinion changing to that of staying a member. Why? Because of the increasing infringements & restrictions of personal freedoms & rights in the UK together with the imposition of certain laws and standards that I find personally beyond the pale. EU membership at least provides access to protections for freedoms and human rights that have become increasingly eroded in our country.

Decisions should not be made on financial grounds, but on philosophical ones. If, for example, you believe that Scotland should be independent - believe it, argue for it and continue to believe it even if it makes no financial sense.

 

[janner43]

On another point - just generally - our system of governance in this country is not one that rules by a series of referenda.

We appoint parliamentarians, who in turn form a government. We elect them to make decisions. If we are happy with those decisions, we re-appoint them to their positions. If not, we appoint a different set.

When we have appointed those parliamentarians and through them, the government, we actually relinquish our personal right to a vote until and unless those same elected parliamentarians decide that they believe we need to express it again.

As such, a referendum on any given subject should only take place once within a generation. A generation is broadly accepted as being 25 years. Therefore, with the residents of Scotland having recently expressed their collective will over this matter, that matter should now be closed for a generation.

That is how we govern in this country. It is certainly not a perfect form of government, but then there are flaws with any system. In my personal view, I believe that the overwhelming majority of the population of the U.K. are moderate and 'conservative' in their views (I don't mean the political party). As such, they prefer gradual, evolutionary change predicated on fairness to everyone. We tend to shy away from extremes of any nature and certainly do not want to be controlled by anything other than our personal freedom of choice and determination.

 

[Diddy]

Hmm I have lived and worked in kent for more than a decade. Circumstances dictated that I had to move back to Scotland so that's my situation.
As someone who has made this life "journey" can I just say the following
1. There are plenty of Idiotic and bigoted english people - you only need watch the news of an evening lol
2. There are plenty of idiotic and bigoted scottish people - again watch the evening news for god's sake
3. The politicians of all colours from the national parties DID band together to form a NO campaign - nobody can really deny that - 1st time they have ever agreed and joined together about ANYTHING as far as I can remember. The same can be said for the media - the majority of the media promoted the NO and discredited the YES - I think anyone with a hint of intelligence can agree that actual facts and figures used by both sides were lacking and at times laughable.
The Ruk did get a say - you voted in the Mp's for your area - the leaders of these mp's decided on your behalf that the UK would suffer if it broke up, So they joined the NO campaign.
Does anybody think that the Tory party or any other party for that matter wanted Scotland to remain in the union for nostalgic reasons ? I don't - It is to do with power/money - nothing else matters.
I voted Yes - but I am not an SNP supporter nor member - I wanted to see a resurgent scottish labour party if truth be told, Is that so difficult for anyone to understand ?
So has things changed since the indy ref ? Yes more people have become politically engaged north of the border - hence why you "hear" their voice more.
In my time in England I have been called a Scottish XXXX (XXXX = every type of swear word you could imagine) - I have been accused of "stealing our jobs" "lowering the rate" been told that "Id kill any of mine who brought home a jock...."
Are these comments representative of your average english person ? Are they hell, I have made 10's of actual REAL friends who I now meet up with weather it is me traveling down or them coming up north or even holidaying abroad together - lifelong friendships. My other half is a nice english girl (a thoroughbred too lol).
Same applies up north - Believe it or not I have been called an English XXXX - due to my softening accent lol, I have heard people who I know to have never left the confine of the town they live in tell me/others how much they "hate" the english, All the stuff that was negative and happened to me down south I have seen replicated up north.....None of it is representative of the "normal" person though.
Every country in the world is perfectly capable of producing their own home grown idiots...ten a penny. They make the normal person cringe when we hear them start.
Football, rugby ect - different rules apply - I had many a great night in england supporting Scotland - even in a very english pub when we played you in Euro 96 and other occasions too - Great banter from all - Called a Scotch Cxxx me calling them English Cxxx blah blah blah....but you know what we all managed to have a beer and all knew it was just banter....Some people can't see through it, im afraid that is their problem - we can't educate everyone.
Finally am I glad that we voted NO after the collapse of oil ect - Nope, Every country in the world runs on good and bad times - these are indeed the bad times...how long for ? Who knows, I would be surprised if the price of oil is not back to historic highs within the next 5 to 10 years....Finite resource with infinite users. A few well placed wars will sort out the over supply.
Lastly I hate and laugh in the face of bigots weather they be English, Scottish or bloody outer Mongolian....a-holes are a-holes whatever accent they may have or whatever country they were born in.

 

[Diddy]

As an aside love your username Janner lol....hope your not related to the late lord ffs.

 

[Octopus]

Wrong, she's stated that ALL Nations have to vote to leave, meaning we can't be dragged out .....

Scots want to stay in EU, as the rest of Britain wants to say goodbye, says new poll (From Herald Scotland)

Wrong AGAIN!

Best you watch this:

Nicola Sturgeon warns of EU exit 'backlash' - BBC News

 

[janner43]

As an aside love your username Janner lol....hope your not related to the late lord ffs.

Like a cockney is from London or a Geordie from Newcastle... a "Janner" is someone from Plymouth or sometimes thought of as from Devon. It originates (as far as I know) from the common male name of John sounding like Jan when spoke with a broad Devonian accent.

Remember "Jan Stewart, Jan Stewart lend me your grey mare" (Widdicombe Fair)?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janner

 

[sean_ork]

Wrong AGAIN!

Best you watch this:

Nicola Sturgeon warns of EU exit 'backlash' - BBC News

Did you post the wrong link ?

That just simply confirms exactly what I posted - there's no mention of a veto, she even uses the same words as I did - essentially support for coming out needs to be across the Country - no one element will be dragged out against their will.

 

[Octopus]

Did you post the wrong link ?

That just simply confirms exactly what I posted - there's no mention of a veto, she even uses the same words as I did - essentially support for coming out needs to be across the Country - no one element will be dragged out against their will.

Democracy mate - if over 50% of the UK nationals vote out then thats the will of the people.

I know you Scots aren't good at maths as you believe that a 55% to 45% was a narrow victory for the "stay" campaign.

And for the record I have a large amount of Scottish blood in me!

 

[sean_ork]

Petty digs are rather pointless - but I don't disagree with your democracy comment - if there was a UK wide out majority, which could potentially lead to sections being dragged out despite their majority vote to stay in - that's certainly more than enough of a reason to revisit the Independence question.

But, there has never been any suggestion of anyone having a veto.