Discuss Don't you just love the SNP...... in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net

I can't see Scotland listed anywhere as a sovereign state in it's own right only as part of the UK and most of your post implies that if Scotland does go independent that they will automatically assume the same world status as the UK does now without hindrance



I don't know how otherwise to expess it, other than the way I did. Scotland entered into a Treaty of Union with England, but irs Parliament was never abolished, simply held in recess. That situation ended in 1998 with The Scotland Act. We are now, and always have been, a sovereign nation, just as England is. What you don't know is not my responsibility. Membership of the EU, for example, does not exclude any member's sovereignty. I'm not sure why you think a simple act of political union would. As to achieving the same world status as the UK, I don't feel I implied any such thing, but since you bring it up, I'd hope we'd have more ambition than that.




Throughout the referendum campaign I don't recall it was ever clear how Scotland was going to finance it's ambitions without the oil revenue. A lot of creative accounting was used by both sides during the campaign but the yes campaigns financials seemed to include figures on one side then ignore them on the other and then there were those costs not acounted for at all

If independence had happened Scotland wanted to contract out various government functions DVLA, Passports, the armed forces etc etc because it had already paid for them, in the various debates and interviews the inference was there that they would pay a contribution to the running costs of the functions they used but it may be less than the actual cost to supply them for those north of the border. This psuedo independence that wee eck proposed was in my opinion designed to get peoples backs up south of the border it was all down to how much Scotland could milk the rest of the UK for

Strange you criticise other posters information sources it would be interesting to know how you decide that Al Jazzera is a credible source. During the referendum campaign there was various documents produced by all the parties did you actually read any of them or where they not credible enough for you to get a balanced view

It is strange that since the oil price and therefore revenue from it has dropped the politicians have gone quiet on the subject


Similarly to your apparent unwillingness to try to uderstand the subject of sovereignty, your lack of reading comprehension is a bit puzzling. I think I made it perfectly clear as to how I judge credibility or otherwise, but just because it's you, I'll try again. I read many sources. Over a period of time, clarity comes from events. If a source states onew thin and then, over a period of time, that transpires not to have been the case, then clearly misreporting has taken place. Thus, gradually, I can begin to judge who is attempting to get to the truth and who is not. It's not an exact science, but that's just not really possible with the vast amount of information swilling around in the ether.

Now, I'm not quite sure what your phrase 'contract out' was meant to convey, but it's an odd choice of words. Scotland's taxpayers, like those of Wales, England and Northern Ireland, fund government projects and effectively own public property. During the referendum campaign, the Westminster government suggested, completely disingenuously, that it could effectively simply refuse to share the family jewels. Even the Governor of the Bank of England bravely attempted to stop them spreading the lie, but they were not to be told. So here's how it works. First of all, currency. England, or 'rUK', however you wish to put it, does not 'own' the Bank of England, it owns a share of it. Similarly, it cannot stop anyone trading Sterling, nor using it as currency. Now Scotland did not want acrimony in the event of a yes vote, but Cameron and his minions set off down that very course. A few home truths were in order, so they were informed that it's as simple as this; if the 'rUK' (by the way, there would have been no such body, since the existence of the UK only occurs by virtue of the Treaty of Union) chose to attempt to deny Scotland its share of assets, jointly held between all parties, then it could not expect Scotland to service its share of UK debt. Now, I want you to think long and hard before replying. In what walk of human existence would anyone want to service another's debts? Scotland borrowed none of that money, nor did it have any say in its borrowing. It was though, prepared to act responsibly and accept its share of the debt, but only if assets were equably distributed. We didn't want the army, DVLA, Passport Offices nor any other assets, simply our share of them. You appear to think that somehow unfair. By the way, I'm absolutely mystified as to where you got the idea that Scotalnd wants to pay England for the use of its government services. Plenty of feasibility studies were carried out and, as expected, they uniformly found that transfer of governmet offices really wouldn't be all that difficult. All it really needed was the will. Hubris might have been a problem, but not likely for long.

As to the credibility or otherwise of campaign literature, I tend to pretty well ignore it. On the odd occasion I'm tempted to berak my own rules, it doesn't take long to remember why they exist.

Finally, get over yourself about the price of oil. I've repeatedly shown that the price of oil, or more importantly oil revenues, are not used in calculating Scotland's GDP, since Scotland doesn't accrue any oil revenues. Of course, oil prices have an effect on Scotland's economy. Many jobs in Scotland, as well as ancillary services, depend on oil, but that hardly makes us unique. Jobs, both domestically and internationally, depend on North Sea Oil. The point is, we have never seen oil as our long term strategy for success. That's why Scotland's leading the rest of the UK and a large part of Europe in renewable energy. We see the writing on the wall, and have done for a long time. As for going quiet, I can only suggest you spend a bit more time reading Scottish publications. You'll find plenty of references to North Sea Oil. Of course, reading the tabloid papers won't cut it. There's no sex involved.
 
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Once again this post has kept me logging in just to get an update, some facts, figures that I was unaware of.
So slightly getting back on track, as a North Sea oil worker of 25yrs offshore, in the past 12 months or so the industry has shed approx 65000 jobs across the sector, this also includes support services redundancies.
When will both governments (Westminster & Holyrood) finally start worrying and acting about this downturn.
When will Cam & Nic get together and have a chat about an industry that has supported many governments with fantastic returns from North Sea oil production over the past four decades.
Hardly a mention of these people out of work, if this had been a large factory within the UK with this amount of redundancies it would have been catastrophic headline news with plans to support these people, the impending job losses at the TaTa steel plants has created headlines, communities torn apart, no hope for the future, but what about my colleagues in the Oil industry, not a word......our leaders should hang their heads in shame.
The media keeps banging on everyday about the price of oil heading downwards, and how good it will be that fuel could hit 85p a litre.

For me I wish it was back at 120p a litre because I know that the oil has bounced back and those 65000 people have a chance of returning to their employers.

So in the big picture, Better Together or Independence mean not a jot to those 65000 unemployed, they just want some recognition that their industry has fallen apart and that their leaders are going to do something about it.
 
Mike, although I'm obviously sorry to hear your industry is in trouble, I'm not sure what you think the Scottish government is able to do about it. Oil is a reserved issue and thus totally the preserve of the UK Government. The oil industry itself hasn't exactly covered itself in glory when it comes to future proofing. It seems to me, and this is not a criticism of you, that the oil industry has been happy to plough ahead with profit-taking while reaching out for tax breaks, keeping a handful of extremely wealthy shareholders happy. Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond and those who came before warned time and again that oil is a finite resource and that we should take a leaf from the Norwegians' book in setting up an oil fund. As a result, we've got ntohing to show for that oil, while they're sitting on a massive stack of money, money belonging to the Norwegian people, who footed most of the bill in the first place. As to headlines, last time I checked, newspapers print them, not governments.
 
We've built a few hundred million up as an oil fund here, its not doing a great deal. There seems to be more interest in spending it on getting superfast BB installed everywhere, perhaps so we can all be sat at home developing shoot em ups and spending our earnings online.

Everyone is guilty of not looking to the future, its far more enjoyable spending your dividend than investing to protect an industry, but given that trade is global there's only so much we can do protect certain industrys - things would be very different if folks were happy to buy British, and pay for that option - we just want cheap. Capitalism depends on growth, so there's no incentive to spend a few quid more on a quality item - its a disposable world, and in this Country apparently so is our ability to make "stuff"

Getting back to the media point, a wise man once said that democracy transfers power from the wallet to the ballot.
 
We've built a few hundred million up as an oil fund here, its not doing a great deal. There seems to be more interest in spending it on getting superfast BB installed everywhere, perhaps so we can all be sat at home developing shoot em ups and spending our earnings online.

Everyone is guilty of not looking to the future, its far more enjoyable spending your dividend than investing to protect an industry, but given that trade is global there's only so much we can do protect certain industrys - things would be very different if folks were happy to buy British, and pay for that option - we just want cheap. Capitalism depends on growth, so there's no incentive to spend a few quid more on a quality item - its a disposable world, and in this Country apparently so is our ability to make "stuff"

Getting back to the media point, a wise man once said that democracy transfers power from the wallet to the ballot.

"We" - is that we the Scots or We the UK?
 
"We" - is that we the Scots or We the UK?
That will be the Orkney and Shetland reserve fund.
totally separate from the Scottish and uk governments.
basically a separate tax on oil and gas that goes through terminals on the islands as far as I am led to believe.
a great idea with a bit of vision that was lacking back in the 70s from the governments of the day.

al jazzera is a far more neutral news source than the BBC as far a Scotland is concerned. I would agree with young scud there.
i read an article about the rise of the conservatives under Ruth Davidson on the BBC last week.ill tell the jokes BBC people!
scotland must be the only country this side of Burma where the media think it s their right to hold the electorate to account, for having the audacity to vote for someone they were told not to .

to get back to the original thread that seems to be lost in talk of oil revenues etc
7 months after the referendum Scotland voted for snp in all the seats bar 2 in a landslide.
protest vote?maybe.
but that's democracy .i certainly didn't vote for a conservative government .
ill have to grin and bear that for the next four years
as will England having the snp as an opposition .
thats democracy.
 
See what we are up against Mr Scud ........

No Mr Murdoch, and no more clues.

As far as I remember my geography, the UK is made uk from the main countries of England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

I do not recall Orkneys and Shetland being seen as a separate part - they are part of Scotland!
 

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