EAL Course in Inspection and Testing

[rmc86uk]

Hi Everyone

Has anyone on here done the EAL Inspection and Testing course? It is set in two parts also like the C&G 2394 and 2395. It is also open book unlike the C&G. I'm thinking of taking the course next year and just wondered what other peoples thoughts are and that the candidate pass rate must be a lot higher than the 40% for 2391.

Just to add I've seen a few posts on here from the Electrical Trainee's who have gained the 2391 qualification with no experience at all! I know a few time served Electricians who have failed the 2391 at least three times!

Surely the scam training centres must be churning the 2391 passes out so that more Electrical Trainee's enrol and spend their Five grand!

 

[trevki]

Read some of the other threads, to find out what a real shoeing feels like (or should I say is written like!)

But Im sure you're old enough, big enough and ugly enough to take it on the chin and carry-on ....... as we all do :cry_smile:

Yes, being pretty much all of those things, I have had harsher criticism...some of it I almost agreed with

 

[Stuuk1]

I was speaking to our apprentice's JTL trainer the other day and apparently C&G has been dropped and they exclusively use EAL for all training now...

 

[UNG]

I have taken a fair bit of stick here, however as an IEng MIET member who has held principal positions with companies you would all know, and having served a full apprenticeship some 35 years ago I feel I have a bit of experience.

Are you suggesting other members are not sufficiently experienced to comment

The trade has suffered through a drop in the overall quality of work produced, more from a practical point than a technical one.

The trade has suffered both technically with the short courses and practically with the lack of properly supervised on site training and experience that complimented the technical training during an apprenticeship this results in a poorer quality installation

An open book exam shows you are able to use the regs in the correct manor rather than learn parts off by heart parrot fashion. To me there is nothing wrong with either, but I like the EAL model as it makes people refer to regs as needed and learn how to use the book, but this does not solve the practical quality problem.

So in an open book exam are you going to look up something you know, if you don't complete the exam is that because they didn't give you enough time to look up all the answers. With any learning model it doesn't force anybody to look up something they don't know but they can wing it with less knowledge and anybody that can use an index can find their way round a book they don't need EAL training for that. The current training system offers no solution to the lack of practical experience to support the technical theory as the complete training package was called an apprenticeship for which the current system has no equivalent

To get to the core of the problem there is only one driving force, a force driven by the client...MONEY. No matter what you think if people want to save money then quality will go out the window. I would still support EAL as an equal but alternative teaching method.

So are you saying the client drives the quality of training or if his budget doesn't extend to buying a quality installation he can't expect one, the client should get a quality installation whatever his budget be it a Mini or a Bentley he is buying
With regard to the EAL it may be an equal in the current training regime but along with the other established training body they need to restore the training to a level that creates properly trained electricians and restore some respect to the industry and themselves as providers of training. No matter how you dress it up the current qualifications both EAL and C&G they lack a lot and actually get the respect or lack of they deserve depending how you view the current training

 

[trevki]

Sorry to read you feel so bitter over this thread, however my answer to most of your reply lies in my last post.
I am neither "saying" nor "suggesting" any of the words you are proposing to put in my mouth, as well you know. What I am stating is that the client should expect to pay for a quality job. If they do not want to pay for a quality job how is anyone able to provide them with such unless they subsidise the client with their own money? and as all our income is from clients this of course impacts on training budgets and influences where trainers spend that money.
Technically, electricians need to know more now than ever so the trend is upwards, from a practical point of view quality control, poor supervision, and inferior materials have all contributed to the actual installations going downhill and are all associated with cost cutting.
The thread is about EAL and C&G, I have made my opinions clear and will happily accept both, others choose not to share my view for their own reasons, though that does not mean they are right or wrong, but in time the EAL teaching model will be the norm. I have exhausted my views on this matter and will not be drawn into an argument, so for now I will take a back seat and read others comments with interest.

 

[D Skelton]

What the hell is EAL? Stinks of Domestic Installer to me!

The EAL equivalent to the C&G 2391/2394+2395 is pure Mickey Mousery, plain and simple!

There are those with half a brain cell (mainly career changers) that have no technical knowledge that go on to pass the 2391/2394+2395 after being taught by rote and being fed past paper by past paper, but that percentage is still thankfully rather low. Give anyone of any level a book to take into an exam with them and anyone can pass it though?!

The 2391 was never designed to be a stand alone qualification, you were supposed to know how to test and inspect without it, taking the exams would then mean that you had written proof of testing knowledge, ie. You can prove on paper that you can put into practice what you have learned over the years. It was supposed to sort the wheat from the chaff, I suppose it still does to a very very small degree. The EAL has been designed however to be a stand alone qualification as it is aimed at those who have very little experience testing and inspecting. This is why the course is longer and the exam ten times easier with it being open book!

Industry recognised my ar$e! I'm an employer and if someone came looking to me for a job with an EAL qual they'd get laughed out the door! I want people coming to me who have at least attempted to keep some valuable knowledge in their heads as opposed to relying on a book that they can't even interpret for information! You don't need to look very far to point the finger of blame at an organisation that is at least partly responsible for the catastrophic deskilling of our industry than EAL! If EAL quals become the norm in future, there will be some very rich C&G qualified sparks out there!

What next, the EAL level 4 design course? A ten week course, a 5 hour design project and a free copy of EAL's design software thrown in to help them on their merry way?!?!

What a joke!

 

[Skimpy Wan]

I'm about to complete (hopefully) my 1st year of 3yrs at college to become a fully qualified Electical Installer. All colleges that I contacted prior to starting advised me that they no longer use C&G, and use EAL, as the standards had dropped etc. As EAL standards are NVQ level 3 throughout, rather than being level 2 and progressing to level 3, the end result of the qualification seems to be the same (hence why JIB accept it). Well I bloody well hope so after the 3 years and £1,000's I'll be spending on gaining the qualifications.

 

[D Skelton]

Your college are talking nonsense. The old C&G 2330 was two years at level 2 and one year at level 3. The new C&G 2365 (the knowledge unit part of the C&G 2375) is at level 3 throughout. The only reason they are using EAL is because they are cheaper than C&G and being supposedly industry recognised (which they aren't in all honesty) allows further education providers to run them as the full ticket.

 

[markc123]

WHY oh WHY can't their just beat one industry recognised qualification body, one industry scheme, one way to become an electrician...

It's not rocket science.

Take other lines of life .... wonder what the goverment would say if someone tried to set-up and challenge, say, the DVLA. Wouldn't happen would it!

 

[UNG]

Exactly which part of the industry decided these EAL qualifications should be recognised by all of the industry

 

[Skimpy Wan]

I don't see why employers would (and do) discriminate against the EAL qualifications if the JIB doesn't? It is bloody worrying if it then hinders me later down the line when I'm looking for work etc, have spent 3 years at college and am thousands in debt to the qualification.

 

[markc123]

I don't see why employers would (and do) discriminate against the EAL qualifications if the JIB doesn't? It is bloody worrying if it then hinders me later down the line when I'm looking for work etc, have spent 3 years at college and am thousands in debt to the qualification.

The EAL Inspection and Testing qualification is open-book, meaning you have all the answers in front of you.

The C+G Inspection and Testing qualification is closed-book, meaning if you don't know it you aint passing ...

Put that to your tutor, im sure when you realise that you can see why people discriminate against the EAL...

- - - Updated - - -

Although having said that, from what was said earlier about the C+G it unforunatley looks like they're soon to be discrimiated against aswell!

The whole system is a farce!

 

[Skimpy Wan]

The flip side to an open book exam is they can ask you anything and it has to be 100% correct as the information is there at your fingertips, rather than being a slightly more open question / answer.

 

[markc123]

The flip side to an open book exam is they can ask you anything and it has to be 100% correct as the information is there at your fingertips, rather than being a slightly more open question / answer.

You still have to use the exact correct terminology in the closed book exam's aswell.

Personally, i can't see any benefit to an open book exam, or these multiple-choice nonsense's. I mean multiple-choice ... if ure extremley lucky, you can pass it without knowing the foggiest about electrics... if i ever win the lottery i'll pay for one of my non-electrician mates too sit the 17th multiple-choice joke exam, be interesting too see the result.

 

[D Skelton]

I've always thought the 17th edition exam should be closed book! Open book exams have no value to them whatsoever!

 

[Badged01]

The trouble with "open book" or "closed book" exams, whichever one you take, I think you can guarantee a few good years down the line you wont still be able to remember everything you knew for the exam and will need to consult the "book" -- so your real life problem will become an open book solution (exam)!

But if you still can remember everything from so many years ago (and I can't) you have one hell of a mind and are in the wrong profession ...... you should be making big bucks using that brain! Unless of course you are just in the game for the love of it and money is pretty meaningless to you!!

 

[pitkin2020]

I'm on the EAL level 2 course and I agree with some of the arguments for and against.

Open book, well I see this as a non issue. It's a heavily regulated industry and just because you think you know doesn't mean you shouldn't refer to the regs to confirm. Whilst doing the exams it's open book for ONE of the exams and yes the answers are in it but you have to understand what it actually means and how to interpret it. If your on site and never refer to the books when doing a job you haven't done before or a Long while your either a genius or your ego is far too big. It's about making sure people continually refer to the regs.

Exams online multiple choice, personally for some topics like fixings etc this is fine. More technical stuff I do think they should be written so you can actually show an understanding rather than just a best guess. I believe level 3 is more written than multiple choice.

It is an industry recognised qualification but it doesn't have the history c&g does, but it will in the as c&g aren't what they used to be. Unfortunately it's more about the pass mark for ALL courses now rather than the actual quality of the student at the end.

Pass is a pass and that's all they care about. From a student who is actually doing ok on the course I can't distinguish myself from the guy who is literally scraping through. If we both pass on paper we are equal and in that respect c&g is no different.

If your an employer and you are employing a c&g qualified guy over EAL that's your choice but it doesn't actually mean your getting a better trained person. In my college it was c&g until a while back the lecturers are teaching the same information just a different qualification at the end.

 

[D Skelton]

If your an employer and you are employing a c&g qualified guy over EAL that's your choice but it doesn't actually mean your getting a better trained person.

With regards to the testing and inspection qualification, yes it does! End of!

 

[pitkin2020]

With regards to the testing and inspection qualification, yes it does! End of!

Really both approved courses so just because you say it's so doesn't mean it's so lol

 

[D Skelton]

Really both approved courses so just because you say it's so doesn't mean it's so lol

No, you're quite right, just because I say so doesn't make it so, but evidently, open book exams have always been easier than closed book exams. The C&G exam tests your fundamental knowledge of testing and inspection procedures, the EAL exam tests your knowledge of how to read and interpret a book.

The latter is clearly the easier option! How can this be arguable?!

I feel sorry for you mate because whoever sold you EAL for your T&I qual sold you a lie! Despite what they tell you, EAL is not industry recognised and is widely viewed as a joke. The only people who accept EAL are the scam schemes who frankly, would accept any old crap as an excuse to sign you up and take your money.

 

[pitkin2020]

See like you that was what I thought so I did my homework. I spoke with several large companies in the area to seek their opinion. At the end of the day I'm likely to be working for them and they were all happy with either EAL or c&g.

The main issue is no provider in this area within an hours travel
Is doing c&g. I would have had to do it as a distance learning course which is a joke.

Of course an open book exam will be easier but the exam isn't based on your memory it's about doing it correctly and to the regulations. If your attitude is you don't need the book the your a genius. You'd never learn all the regulations in the time scale but you will learn a lot fair do.

Just because you have the on site guide there in front of you not everything in the exam is found in the on site guide the only book you can take in. Even then when it's there you still need to know how to calculate and use the information correctly.

Also if it was so much easier the pass rate would be 100% for everyone that takes the exam surely?? Which isn't the case, if you don't know what to look for in the book or how I interpret it then it's useless

 

[D Skelton]

See like you that was what I thought so I did my homework. I spoke with several large companies in the area to seek their opinion. At the end of the day I'm likely to be working for them and they were all happy with either EAL or c&g.

Yes but are they specifically after a T&I qual? If I put an advert out for an installation electrician and had a requirement that they had passed a C&G core qualification and an NVQ level 3 or equivalent then whether they held a C&G or an EAL T&I qual would be irrelevant. As long as they held the qualification that I wanted then that's all that matters.

The other thing you might want to factor in to the equation is who it is you sopke to at those companies, because if it was some office lacky then they're unlikely to know what you're talking about anyway. If it was a director and he is prepared to accept EAL or C&G quals then I would be willing to bet that he/she holds neither, thus has no knowledge of the difference.

The main issue is no provider in this area within an hours travel
Is doing c&g. I would have had to do it as a distance learning course which is a joke.

I would travel as long as it took to get C&G over EAL!

Of course an open book exam will be easier

There we go then, problem solved, the EAL T&I exam is as much use to an employer when it comes to employing someone knowledgable in testing and inspection procedures as a chocolate fire guard!

but the exam isn't based on your memory it's about doing it correctly and to the regulations. If your attitude is you don't need the book the your a genius. You'd never learn all the regulations in the time scale but you will learn a lot fair do.

Then any old muppet can pick up the book and pass. Not everyone is going to have fundamental knowledge of T&I are they and can pass a closed book exam? In fact only about 10% of electricians do!

Just because you have the on site guide there in front of you not everything in the exam is found in the on site guide the only book you can take in. Even then when it's there you still need to know how to calculate and use the information correctly.

"Here you are Mr Jones, now, I know you have no formal training whatsoever but in order to be a heart surgeon you have to pass this one exam", "Ok, but I won't know the answers will I?", "Don't worry, here's a book on everything you need to know about heart surgery, not all the answers will be in that book but most of them will be".......

"Congratulations, you passed, you are now a qualified heart surgeon!"

Also if it was so much easier the pass rate would be 100% for everyone that takes the exam surely?? Which isn't the case, if you don't know what to look for in the book or how I interpret it then it's useless

Erm, actually, every single training provider that boasts a 100% pass rate for their testing and inspection trainees is teaching the EAL. They could not boast that in a million years with the C&G one!

 

[pitkin2020]

It's pointless arguing with you it's your opinion and I'm not goin to be working you. The people I am
Likely to be working for accept it an that's all that is relevant.

I don't know the testing and inspection exam is open book haven't got that far yet but til be backed with actual practical assessments I expect like the course I'm currently on.

Wow you must be pretty rich if you could afford to travel so far all day to attend college everyday. I have to work so travelling to Exeter approx an hour to an hour and half away four times a week isn't feasable

 

[D Skelton]

It's pointless arguing with you it's your opinion and I'm not goin to be working you.

Erm, nope, not just my opinion mate. Fact. That's why it's pointless arguing. Open book is easier than closed book, even you agreed on this. EALs T&I qual has never been and probably will never be industry recognised. I'd advise you to spend your time looking for somewhere to do your level 3 I&T with a C&G centre rather than getting shirty with us on here just because we are being truthful about your inferior qualification.

The people I am likely to be working for accept it an that's all that is relevant.

They probably only accept it because it isn't relevant to the job application, I say this because you state you are on the level 2 course, which is pretty much a worthless qualification anyway. If I&T quals were actually relevant to your job application they'd want to see level 3 I&T quals minimum. That's why I say when you get round to doing your level 3 T&I quals, make sure they're C&G!

I don't know the testing and inspection exam is open book haven't got that far yet but til be backed with actual practical assessments I expect like the course I'm currently on.

It is open book, that is the problem, and so is the practical.

Wow you must be pretty rich if you could afford to travel so far all day to attend college everyday. I have to work so travelling to Exeter approx an hour to an hour and half away four times a week isn't feasable

For the six or so days it would take to get a C&G T&I qual over an EAL one you don't need to be that rich do you?!? In a minoirity of cases you just have to be prepared to travel a little further.

 

[pitkin2020]

Where have you got 6 extra days from on a full time course?

 

[D Skelton]

T&I courses are 6/7/8 days only, I'm not talking about a full time 3 year course, nor are you given the title of the thread?

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I don't know if i have replied to this earlier, but as i work for a centre that is both EAL and C&G accredited, i will.

There is no difference to the requirements of the EAL or C&G qualifications, the assessments and centre resources are identical, the qualification is identical. They both carry the same weight. People can have their opinions and preferences, but these are the facts about the quals.

The EAL written exams are open book, and i think the online one is as well. The practical tasks are open book anyway, as there has to be clean copies of BS7671, GN3 and the OSG available to candidates whether they are doing EAL or C&G.

The C&G closed book exams is an exam on what you can remember, and some of the crap they ask is badly worded, and not relevant to electrical inspection and testing. That aside, who in there right mind needs to recall from memory 3 locations as defined in BS7671 that in certain parts of them must not have a TNCS system! I am sorry but this does not need memorising, neither does things like voltage drop tables or insulation resistance tables etc etc etc, this is why we refer to reference books, the memorising comes with experience and repetition. Is it really important to remember Electricity at Work REGULATIONS, Health and safety at work ACT, and then get shafted for getting a word or two mixed up……I don't think so! so what is the crime in looking it up. There is no Electrician out there who is crap just because they can't remember to get a word in the right place, but this minor slip up will have no doubt been the difference between a pass or a fail for someone, and i personally think it stinks.

The EAL way tests your ability to check and find out the correct way of doing things if you are unsure. I agree we should know all of the basics such as the testing sequence, proving dead etc, but as for having to remember it all, well thats just bollox in my opinion.

For all of you out there who slate the NICEIC, think yourselves lucky that you don't need to deal with C&G.


Rant over,

 

[D Skelton]

They both carry the same weight.

You have to say that, you are delivering it!

The EAL written exams are open book, and i think the online one is as well. The practical tasks are open book anyway, as there has to be clean copies of BS7671, GN3 and the OSG available to candidates whether they are doing EAL or C&G.

The C&G closed book exams is an exam on what you can remember, and some of the crap they ask is badly worded, and not relevant to electrical inspection and testing. That aside, who in there right mind needs to recall from memory 3 locations as defined in BS7671 that in certain parts of them must not have a TNCS system! I am sorry but this does not need memorising, neither does things like voltage drop tables or insulation resistance tables etc etc etc, this is why we refer to reference books, the memorising comes with experience and repetition. Is it really important to remember Electricity at Work REGULATIONS, Health and safety at work ACT, and then get shafted for getting a word or two mixed up……I don't think so! so what is the crime in looking it up. There is no Electrician out there who is crap just because they can't remember to get a word in the right place, but this minor slip up will have no doubt been the difference between a pass or a fail for someone, and i personally think it stinks.

But it is important to remember the correct sequence of tests to carry out on a ring final circuit for example. It is important to remember the process to follow prior to carrying out inspection and testing. It is important to remember how to correctly set inspection and testing samples. It is important to remember the correct procedure for determining whether or not supplementary bonding in a bathroom is adequate.

The EAL way tests your ability to check and find out the correct way of doing things if you are unsure. I agree we should know all of the basics such as the testing sequence, proving dead etc, but as for having to remember it all, well thats just bollox in my opinion.

The EAL way tests your ability to read a book!

For all of you out there who slate the NICEIC, think yourselves lucky that you don't need to deal with C&G.

I agree, I know a fair bit about dealing with C&G, that said, C&G still have more weight than any other awarding body in this trade!

Would you rather a degree from Oxford or from Gary's Degrees Ltd?

 

[Sparkie30]

You have to say that, you are delivering it!



But it is important to remember the correct sequence of tests to carry out on a ring final circuit for example. It is important to remember the process to follow prior to carrying out inspection and testing. It is important to remember how to correctly set inspection and testing samples. It is important to remember the correct procedure for determining whether or not supplementary bonding in a bathroom is adequate.



The EAL way tests your ability to read a book!



I agree, I know a fair bit about dealing with C&G, that said, C&G still have more weight than any other awarding body in this trade!

Would you rather a degree from Oxford or from Gary's Degrees Ltd?

Jesus mate, you don't like it when people have different opinion to you.
I totally agree with sirkit in regards to C&G, they will fail you unless you answer exactly as it's on their books.

 

[D Skelton]

I couldn't give a monkeys if someone disagrees with me, that is what debate is for, and that is why I like forums like this.

I very much respect Howard and his knowledge and would never accuse him of talking $hite, but I will happily and respectfully disagree with him on this point.

 

[dazza1981]

I couldn't give a monkeys if someone disagrees with me, that is what debate is for, and that is why I like forums like this.

I very much respect Howard and his knowledge and would never accuse him of talking $hite, but I will happily and respectfully disagree with him on this point.

Agreed this forum would be a little boring if everybody agreed and there were no debates.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I couldn't give a monkeys if someone disagrees with me, that is what debate is for, and that is why I like forums like this.

I very much respect Howard and his knowledge and would never accuse him of talking $hite, but I will happily and respectfully disagree with him on this point.

And i have to agree with his earlier comment, C&G will always be the preferred badge to have, at least for the foreseeable future anyway.

Cheers……………Howard

 

[namco]

Hello all, my first post so go easy on me.
I qualified with c&g 17th edition and 2392, 2391. And EAL level 2
I'm now looking to join NAPIT (pockets aren't deep enough to join NICEIC), but napit tell me they have updated their requirements and ask me to update my EAL qualification to level 3, which they can provide (240+vat).
Now after reading this long thread with many good points, are what napit asking for just a way to get me to go on their course, I understand that qualifications need to be updated and reassessed from time to time but from certain comments about how the eal qualification is a watered down c&g 2391, are napit just trying to get more money out of me, like everyone else in the system.

Many thanks

 

[LVSparks]

I agree with D Skelton and the others. This is a mickey mouse course.
Im 2391, I studied hard and long for this exam and this was after years of experience.
30 -40% pass rate says it all.
A lad in my firm has just passed this open book multiple choice exam(what a joke lol). He has no experience of real life periodic jobs, only initial verifications which any decent spark can do without a qual.
This qualification will put electricians out on jobs doing periodic inspections and missing valuable observations etc and clients will be none the wiser.

 

[grandfortune]

i also passed my 2394 and 95 closed book exam not a fart arsed dumbed down version

i know plenty of employers that wouldnt have you on that 2391 only

 

[trev]

i know plenty of employers that wouldnt have you on that 2391 only

As the older lads leave the trade the 2394/5 will become the "go to" I&T qual. I've got it on pretty good authority that it's not much different and is equally valuable.

 

[jamsey]

As the older lads leave the trade the 2394/5 will become the "go to" I&T qual. I've got it on pretty good authority that it's not much different and is equally valuable.

im a old fart been in the trade 15 years and always been told that because i can do it i dont need the qualification (piece of paper) but now im back in the job market alls i get are questions like "have you got this certificate?" i am booked on the next EAL course in my area as its cheaper and the NIC told me they recognise it they are the main reasons for me and ill let you know how i get on and what its like...

 

[Leesparkykent]

im a old fart been in the trade 15 years and always been told that because i can do it i dont need the qualification (piece of paper) but now im back in the job market alls i get are questions like "have you got this certificate?" i am booked on the next EAL course in my area as its cheaper and the NIC told me they recognise it they are the main reasons for me and ill let you know how i get on and what its like...

Its open book exam isn't it the EAL testing and inspection qualification? IMO it doesn't hold the same weight as the C&G 2391 or 2394/5.

 

[trev]

The NIC may well recognise it mate. The thing is though, the NIC are not the ones who will be giving you a job.
15 years in the trade does not make you an old fart either. You'll be a slight breeze after 20, strong flatulence after 25 then 30 will give you proper Old Fart status.

 

[Des 56]

30 will give you proper Old Fart status.

I'm afraid I'm at the stage where even old fart is but a distant memory:bigcry:

 

[Engineer54]

I honestly can't see the point (and never have done) of open book exams, what are they actually proving to either the student or to anyone else, ...that you can read a book?? One thing's for sure, none of these open book examinations warrant a level 3 rating. Oh and it might seem like bollox to some, but the whole point of an examination is to gauge what you have learnt and have retained in the brain box after completing a subjects course!! Hell it's been the basis of examinations for hundreds of years in just about every country in the world, but now it's all bollox is it?? I think we all know where the bollox lay's!! lol!!

It seems that everything in the world of education from schools to colleges, now resolves around making things easier to enable those not so gifted able to pass exams that realistically shouldn't of been offered the course(s) in the first place.