Emergency Stops

[daveb]

Hello again folks,

Was out looking at a potential job today - something out of the ordinary...

Client wants me to power a single phase to 3 phase inverter (never seen these before). It is to run a an old cutter/ small guillotine for a little printing workshop. As there are open spinning wheels, turning motors etc I have mentioned that he really should have an e-stop put in but he was very resistant - basically saying it is only him that works there and that health and safety don't exist. Was quite taken aback so replies that it may not be his decision if he wants me to undertake the job, as it is me signing it off at the end of the day and the regulations may request this.

I've been pulling my hair out trying to find something in black and white to back this up but typically it's very unclear as to whether it's required. So, thought I would ask you chaps!

Look forward to your thoughts/ responses.

 

[Darkwood]

On first impressions given your lack of familiarity here with common motor control equipment and you admitance of lack of knowledge to where to find the regulation to cover this, my only advice is to walk away.

The BS60204 would cover general machine control and also you need to do a risk assessment to upgrade the machines safety systems, you cannot change the existing control systems without bringing it in line with current regulations, if you do any work on this machine that exceeds past a like for like swap of say some faulty part then all responsibilities of the safety of the equipment and users lays firmly on your shoulders.

You need an indepth knowledge of machinery safety and control legislation
You need the relevent insurance to cover yourself to work on such and design it, it is not covered in most insurance policies unless you ensure you are covered and you know you will be as it is several times more expensive.

It is simple to make something functional and work like an E-Stop or an inverter but it takes a large learning curve and many years to know how to do it to regulation - if this was my customer then I would have walked as soon as he said he gets funny about the required extras.

 

[netblindpaul]

PUWER98, MHSWR, HASAWA, what more do you want, all of these are statute law.
You can do what ever he wants but, you must ensure that your contract is watertight, and you are undertaking only works designed and requested by your client.
DO NOT ACT AS AN ADVISER with regard to this.
Get him to design & specify what he requires in writing, and confirm this in writing and make sure it can be independently verified.
Then do as he asks, if not walk, because if you take any, design responsibility then you will be legally liable.

 

[westward10]

On first impressions given your lack of familiarity here with common motor control equipment and you admitance of lack of knowledge to where to find the regulation to cover this, my only advice is to walk away.

The BS60204 would cover general machine control and also you need to do a risk assessment to upgrade the machines safety systems, you cannot change the existing control systems without bringing it in line with current regulations, if you do any work on this machine that exceeds past a like for like swap of say some faulty part then all responsibilities of the safety of the equipment and users lays firmly on your shoulders.

You need an indepth knowledge of machinery safety and control legislation
You need the relevent insurance to cover yourself to work on such and design it, it is not covered in most insurance policies unless you ensure you are covered and you know you will be as it is several times more expensive.

It is simple to make something functional and work like an E-Stop or an inverter but it takes a large learning curve and many years to know how to do it to regulation - if this was my customer then I would have walked as soon as he said he gets funny about the required extras.

I agree a risk assessment is required and I wouldn't advise undertaking it. I stand to be corrected but is there a specific legal requirement? If a risk assessment suggests one is put in place this would be complementary protective measure?

 

[Darkwood]

As this is probably an old press the op can employ a 3rd party to do the assessment and recommendations, depending on many factors like the possibility of getting your hands trapped, crushed etc there maybe the need for physical barriers, light curtains etc, knowing how to implement them into a new control system that meets requirements is also part of the installers job unless again he gets a 3rd party in to design and build a control but by then your pretty much out of the loop as to doing any work yourself.

 

[daveb]

You are all totally correct and have confirmed my gut reactions that I got when I was there. I will decline to quote - just wanted other opinions and to check it wasn't just me being over paranoid

Thank you all

 

[Darkwood]

It's what the forums is for... glad we could confirm your gut feelings on this.

 

[netblindpaul]

This stuff is what I do now, more than most other things, just done this sort of thing on a COMAH site in England for a client, writing up the report now, on a complete production line.

 

[Darkwood]

I'm 90% breakdown & repair but sometimes design or upgrade so need to know, like me I guess it's a massive eye opener when you know the requirements and you see someone's attempt to add a few things to the machine

 

[daveb]

I suppose than rather than decline to quote, I could offer a quotation just to provide the inverter with a single phase supply and mention that he would have to seek someone else to do the output hook up etc. That way I cover myself and he won't think that I just don't want the job?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To be honest, if the client truly works alone then an E stop may not be much use.
They are generally intended for someone else to operate, if the machine operator gets into difficulties.
Also, unless this is a place of work with employees, I doubt that PUWER etc. would apply.

 

[Darkwood]

If your changing the existing control other than a direct like for like replacement then that is where you start to step on the knife edge with requirements and responsibilities... the majority of the time like most do you'll see no come backs buts it's that gamble and rare occasions that may see you explaining your actions to H&S because of an accident... it's up to you but you get the jist of our thoughts on the matter.. what we express here is good advice but what happens in the real world is often very different as I witness almost weekly.