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Midwest

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Arms
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Why not give him a copy of Electrical Safety First Best Practise Guide 1 (to reinforce your advice);


Page 11 gives guidance on connecting existing light circuits, without a cpc. You will note the caveat at indent for domestic or similar premises at 10.7.
 
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telectrix

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Arms
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1. run a new circuit for the new lights. don't touch the old, broken circuit.
2. tell builder to repair the circuit he's cut.
3. EIC for new circuit, with comment that existing circuit needs rewiring.
 
Why not give him a copy of Electrical Safety First Best Practise Guide 1 (to reinforce your advice);


Page 11 gives guidance on connecting existing light circuits, without a cpc. You will note the caveat at indent for domestic or similar premises at 10.7.
First time I’ve seen this guideline on electrical installations looks very good and will learn from it. I’ve just scanned through it and just not sure on couple things sure I’ll have more questions when I read through it properly. I always tell customers that they need Rcd protection especially with bathroom lighting circuits and also sockets that have potential to be used for outdoor purposes which most people tend to plug in extension lead and use pressure washer, hedge trimmer, lawn mower etc yet the guideline on this page states you don’t necessarily need a board change, Rcd protection. I would disagree and say that you do need to I’m basing this on domestic not commercial and industrial as I understand a lot of machinery does not require Rcd protection one of my main priorities when doing work is that consumer unit is up to standard and Rcd protection is provided as additional protection
 

GBDamo

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Supporter
1. run a new circuit for the new lights. don't touch the old, broken circuit.
2. tell builder to repair the circuit he's cut.
3. EIC for new circuit, with comment that existing circuit needs rewiring.
Run the new circuit to a JB next to the old to supply the new lights, complete and cert. Take pictures of how you left it.

Tell customer you're having nothing to do with the old as it's non-compliant and potentiality unsafe and under no circumstances could you condone taking a feed from the new JB to the old JB.
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
First time I’ve seen this guideline on electrical installations looks very good and will learn from it. I’ve just scanned through it and just not sure on couple things sure I’ll have more questions when I read through it properly. I always tell customers that they need Rcd protection especially with bathroom lighting circuits and also sockets that have potential to be used for outdoor purposes which most people tend to plug in extension lead and use pressure washer, hedge trimmer, lawn mower etc yet the guideline on this page states you don’t necessarily need a board change, Rcd protection. I would disagree and say that you do need to I’m basing this on domestic not commercial and industrial as I understand a lot of machinery does not require Rcd protection one of my main priorities when doing work is that consumer unit is up to standard and Rcd protection is provided as additional protection
This best practice guide, probably needs an update.

I need to read it perhaps. I don’t think you can advise a customer that a CU change is required, because the existing doesn’t meet existing regs, if that’s what your saying?

If a CU hasn’t additional protection, it does not mean it’s not suitable for continued service.
 

telectrix

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Mentor
Arms
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This best practice guide, probably needs an update.

I need to read it perhaps. I don’t think you can advise a customer that a CU change is required, because the existing doesn’t meet existing regs, if that’s what your saying?

If a CU hasn’t additional protection, it does not mean it’s not suitable for continued service.
thing is, any work that you do needs to comply with current regs, so if you have a CU that is fit for continued use, but does not provide the protection that your new work requires ( e.g. RCD for bathroom/lighting/buried cables in walls, then you have to provide that RCD protection, either by a standalone RCD just to cover your work, or by upgrading CU.

the latter option may cost more, but will make the whole installation safer.
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
thing is, any work that you do needs to comply with current regs, so if you have a CU that is fit for continued use, but does not provide the protection that your new work requires ( e.g. RCD for bathroom/lighting/buried cables in walls, then you have to provide that RCD protection, either by a standalone RCD just to cover your work, or by upgrading CU.

the latter option may cost more, but will make the whole installation safer.
Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.
 
T

Toneyz

I think that we are detracting regarding the RCD protection and will have to assume that this is complied with for the new part of the installation. Has the OP checked to see if all the lights are standard pendants and batton holders (ie. no class 1 fittings), the switch back boxes are the ones with plastic lugs and there are no metal switch plates?
 

telectrix

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Mentor
Arms
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I think that we are detracting regarding the RCD protection and will have to assume that this is complied with for the new part of the installation. Has the OP checked to see if all the lights are standard pendants and batton holders (ie. no class 1 fittings), the switch back boxes are the ones with plastic lugs and there are no metal switch plates?
but what have class 2 fittings got to do with RCD protection? RCDs are for additional,protection. in old speak, protection against direct contact with live parts.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #40
I think that we are detracting regarding the RCD protection and will have to assume that this is complied with for the new part of the installation. Has the OP checked to see if all the lights are standard pendants and batton holders (ie. no class 1 fittings), the switch back boxes are the ones with plastic lugs and there are no metal switch plates?
Was there earlier, had a talk and now rewiring most of the lighting bar (some) of the switchdrops. The one circuit n the bedroom he refusing to rewire does have a standard pendant and switch, and will put nylon 3.5's in switch. I will make a note on EIC about this; not much else I can do, except walk.
 
T

Toneyz

but what have class 2 fittings got to do with RCD protection? RCDs are for additional,protection. in old speak, protection against direct contact with live parts.
The OP posted in post No.8 that the circuit had RCD protection the post was about the omission of a CPC in the existing lighting circuit.
 
Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.
I’m saying that when I go to property to do work which is why I’m there in first instance if you existing
Yep I do know any new work needs to comply; but I'm just wondering if @Grant1987 is suggesting an existing CU needs updating for an existing install, albeit it would make it safer.
sorry for delayed reply all I’m saying is that when I go to customers property before I carry out work on circuits involved I tell them that because the existing consumer unit does not provide additional protection by way of Rcd then I would need to cover my work by installing one. If the consumer unit is an old one with bs 3036 semi enclosed then I recommend a board change, or even if they have the plug in mcbs which I thought were non compliant due to breaking capacities? I’m not an expert but here to learn and give my opinion I’m probably over cautious with my work but like to clarify with customer before carrying out any work and the costs involved.
 

Paignton pete

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Arms
Esteemed
I’m saying that when I go to property to do work which is why I’m there in first instance if you existing

sorry for delayed reply all I’m saying is that when I go to customers property before I carry out work on circuits involved I tell them that because the existing consumer unit does not provide additional protection by way of Rcd then I would need to cover my work by installing one. If the consumer unit is an old one with bs 3036 semi enclosed then I recommend a board change, or even if they have the plug in mcbs which I thought were non compliant due to breaking capacities? I’m not an expert but here to learn and give my opinion I’m probably over cautious with my work but like to clarify with customer before carrying out any work and the costs involved.
It’s all in the wording.

Clarify to the customer that:

“You need a surtain amount of protection to do a job.”

“At present your installation does not have that protection.”

Then you would go on to say the best means to achieve this protection

“ fitting a new upgraded CU would give you the required protection to do the job.”

Never say to the customer your rewritable fuse board needs replacing because it’s not up to current regs. That is not true. It’s possibly fine and can continue to be used.

It’s just to achieve the required protection on the work your doing that requires an upgrade.

you are not wrong. It’s just you must clarify to the customer clearly why you are recommending a CU upgrade.
 
It’s all in the wording.

Clarify to the customer that:

“You need a surtain amount of protection to do a job.”

“At present your installation does not have that protection.”

Then you would go on to say the best means to achieve this protection

“ fitting a new upgraded CU would give you the required protection to do the job.”

Never say to the customer your rewritable fuse board needs replacing because it’s not up to current regs. That is not true. It’s possibly fine and can continue to be used.

It’s just to achieve the required protection on the work your doing that requires an upgrade.

you are not wrong. It’s just you must clarify to the customer clearly why you are recommending a CU upgrade.
Yes you’re wording is far better than mine. I’m useless on here with my way of explaining things. All that you’re saying here is exactly what I say to my customers which in simple terms your electrical installation is not up to current standards I recommend you bring them up to standard. I don’t just mean with old rewireable fuse boards but the whole electrics in the property I’ll look at everything and don’t like to leave without telling them what is not compliant with current regs regardless of I’m working on that particular circuit things like cooker points over the cooker or socket outlets over draining board. Knowing that I’m the last electrician in that property I like to make sure that I explain all the issues there
 

Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
What’s wrong with a socket over a draining board :)

Actually as I recall, as long as it’s 300mm from the sink edge, it’s fine apparently.

When I did small jobs, most of mine were, I did the install to the latest regs. Much as I would like them to have a rewire or CU replacement, that’s down to the customers decision.
 
T

Trains

Wonder if the OP has checked to see if the switch drops are in metal conduit - very typical of an era when no CPC's were in lighting circuits?
 

Paignton pete

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Arms
Esteemed
What’s wrong with a socket over a draining board :)

Actually as I recall, as long as it’s 300mm from the sink edge, it’s fine apparently.

When I did small jobs, most of mine were, I did the install to the latest regs. Much as I would like them to have a rewire or CU replacement, that’s down to the customers decision.
The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm.

Agree CU change is down to the customer, but if adding to a socket or lighting circuit the customer must have the RCDprotection as is required by whatever means, otherwise I cannot do the job.
Post automatically merged:

Yes you’re wording is far better than mine. I’m useless on here with my way of explaining things. All that you’re saying here is exactly what I say to my customers which in simple terms your electrical installation is not up to current standards I recommend you bring them up to standard. I don’t just mean with old rewireable fuse boards but the whole electrics in the property I’ll look at everything and don’t like to leave without telling them what is not compliant with current regs regardless of I’m working on that particular circuit things like cooker points over the cooker or socket outlets over draining board. Knowing that I’m the last electrician in that property I like to make sure that I explain all the issues there
I totally get you with regard to wording.

It’s taken along time for me to get it right. Literally decades.

I’m naturally brilliant at maths , gut absolutely rubbish in my English skills.

Bullet points.

Spaces.

Paragraphs.

That’s how I can get what I mean to say on paper.

Also when I started writing quotes I had to get it right out of nessecity. I would get my wife to check them all. Practice made me able to do this.

I had a 3 hour written exam couple of years ago. I was bricking it. I did the above and passed . Bering in mind it has a 60% fail rate.
I was prouder with myself for actually being able to write what I meant than the content.
I always know the answers but finger it difficult to write it.
 
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Midwest

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Arms
Esteemed
The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm
I should add, that the guidance now is 300mm from the sink ‘bowl’, not the edge of the drainer bit, like I used to think.
 

telectrix

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Mentor
Arms
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Apparently its in the 2019 NHBC guidance, and blue OSG, neither of which I have access to.
send me your bank details and PIN and I'll nick those books for you.
 
The 300 mm is guidance only. I do stick to the 300mm but in a small kitchen where space is not good, if I have to, I alter the distance to 150 mm.

Agree CU change is down to the customer, but if adding to a socket or lighting circuit the customer must have the RCDprotection as is required by whatever means, otherwise I cannot do the job.
Post automatically merged:


I totally get you with regard to wording.

It’s taken along time for me to get it right. Literally decades.

I’m naturally brilliant at maths , gut absolutely rubbish in my English skills.

Bullet points.

Spaces.

Paragraphs.

That’s how I can get what I mean to say on paper.

Also when I started writing quotes I had to get it right out of nessecity. I would get my wife to check them all. Practice made me able to do this.

I had a 3 hour written exam couple of years ago. I was bricking it. I did the above and passed . Bering in mind it has a 60% fail rate.
I was prouder with myself for actually being able to write what I meant than the content.
I always know the answers but finger it difficult to write it.
Haha yes I’m the same, I’ve always had a natural ability at maths but English shocking! My wife also tried/tries to educate me but I just can’t get it to sink in. Fair play to you passing the written exam that’s a big ask for people who struggle with English.
Back to electrics I was under the impression it had to be 300mm from draining board and the 150mm applied to the edge of cooker (scorch zone)?
 

Paignton pete

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Arms
Esteemed
Haha yes I’m the same, I’ve always had a natural ability at maths but English shocking! My wife also tried/tries to educate me but I just can’t get it to sink in. Fair play to you passing the written exam that’s a big ask for people who struggle with English.
Back to electrics I was under the impression it had to be 300mm from draining board and the 150mm applied to the edge of cooker (scorch zone)?
The 300mm is not actually in bs7671. So is not a reg.

It is guidance only. Yes it’s good guidance and you need a very good reason not to apply it.

Sometimes common sense is what is required.
 
The 300mm is not actually in bs7671. So is not a reg.

It is guidance only. Yes it’s good guidance and you need a very good reason not to apply it.

Sometimes common sense is what is required.
Right ok I’ll bear that in mind but yea like you said common sense is required and I’m over cautious so certainly won’t be putting socket anywhere near water source
 
T

Toneyz

Right ok I’ll bear that in mind but yea like you said common sense is required and I’m over cautious so certainly won’t be putting socket anywhere near water source
However, BS7671 does refer to external influence.
 
You say circuit is rcd protected - does the customer know that you need an earth for that to work? Otherwise it’s pointless. New building means new wiring in my book.....
 
T

Toneyz

I think the original post was about connecting a lighting circuit with no CPC onto the new circuit? the new circuit complying with the 18th.
 
I’ve just kind of come across the same. No CPC on lighting circuit, so advised customer that they are to only use class II fittings and plastic accessories. Also put label on DB indicating said circuit. Advised them of getting either a earth feed in from DB or get a re-wire. They’re not too keen on those options. So put a note on the MWC.
 
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