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I'm going to quote for a kitchen rewire shortly where the client is having a new kitchen fitted and new appliances and am contemplating doing away with the traditional 2.5 ring final on a 32amp mcb and running a 4mm radial instead. Clipped direct is 36amp so could still use a 32amp but with todays energy efficiency could probably even use a 20amp mcb and have the option to move up to 32 if needed.

Just wanted to see what peoples thoughts are whether anyone has done it or if the ring final in the kitchen is here to stay?
 
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At the risk of sounding completely noob... I didn't even realise they did 25amp hahaha! Even better can't see newer appliances using close to that these days so that will be fine and plenty under the max carrying capacity, thanks mhar
 

telectrix

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At the risk of sounding completely noob... I didn't even realise they did 25amp hahaha! Even better can't see newer appliances using close to that these days so that will be fine and plenty under the max carrying capacity, thanks mhar
not all manufacturers do 25A MCBs and even those that do, rare to find them in wholesaler's off the shelf.
 

Pete999

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I'm going to quote for a kitchen rewire shortly where the client is having a new kitchen fitted and new appliances and am contemplating doing away with the traditional 2.5 ring final on a 32amp mcb and running a 4mm radial instead. Clipped direct is 36amp so could still use a 32amp but with todays energy efficiency could probably even use a 20amp mcb and have the option to move up to 32 if needed.

Just wanted to see what peoples thoughts are whether anyone has done it or if the ring final in the kitchen is here to stay?
Just use a standard 32Amp radial wired in 4mm2 as long as the area isn't greater than 75M2 BS 7671 App 15 can't see where the confusion lies.
 
B

Bobster

Just use a standard 32Amp radial wired in 4mm2 as long as the area isn't greater than 75M2 BS 7671 App 15 can't see where the confusion lies.
Doesn't take much of a de rating factor to make 4mm unsuitable for a 32A MCB.

Although the OP will calculate this as part of his design.
 
Have done a few kitchen refurbs using 4mm radials

Especially when the entire house is on 1 ring main I take the entire kitchen off the ring main and just wire it in 1 or 2 new 4mm radials depending on loads etc

I actually quite like doing it this way
 
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  • #9
Thanks guys yea thats the way il do it then just wanted to get a few peoples opinions first and yes oc will check VD etc beforehand, very good forum this cheers guys
 
T

The Ghost

I often use radials domestic and commercial. There is some advantages to this. Testing is straightforward and installation in many ways. I usually do 32a. While I agree that wont work for some situations regarding C factors most of the time it does and more so for commercial. While you can do branching with radial circuits, much like the continental method I think it can become a nightmare later when additions and alterations come in to it. As well it is difficult to put three 4mm² into the terminations on sockets. It is a matter of judgement of course regards use of and future use as to whether a radial will be suitable load wise. Never had any problems so far with overloads.
 

GBDamo

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At the risk of sounding completely noob... I didn't even realise they did 25amp hahaha! Even better can't see newer appliances using close to that these days so that will be fine and plenty under the max carrying capacity, thanks mhar
You know I was pondering whether this is a misnomer, most kitchen appliances will be no more efficient that in days of yore.

Anything with a heating element will require pretty much the same input to achieve it's purpose.

There are exceptions, obviously:-

Washing machines = wash colder
Fridges/Freezers = Better insulated.
Condenser Dryers

Things that will draw similar current:-

Oven
Hob (dedicated circuit though)
Kettle
Toaster
Blender/Mixer
Microwave
Extractor Hood
Tumble dryers

Then of course there is the multitude of crap that we never used to have.

Dishwasher
Coffee maker
Juicer
Smoothie maker
TVs
Plate warmer
Steam oven
Plinth heater
second ovens
Instant hot water taps


It would be extremely difficult to over load 4mm cable on a domestic kitchen
You ain't seen my missus attempting a Sunday roast.
 
S

Squid

Dryer and washing machine should be in the utility room, tsk.

Most of the stuff listed above gets used once and then is hidden away and given away to a charity shop 5 years down the line.
 

GBDamo

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The instructions on the Iceland packaging confuses her?

;o))))
She's actually very good, just seemed an appropriate line to come out with...
 

GBDamo

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Dryer and washing machine should be in the utility room, tsk.

Most of the stuff listed above gets used once and then is hidden away and given away to a charity shop 5 years down the line.
Utility room? is that the meter cupboard?

This is oop North, we've only just move the bogs indoors.
 
Cooker circuits with super BOOST Inductive hobs !
and Showers ,seem to more focused on efficient use of time rather than kW.
 

Pete999

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Why the reluctance to using 2.5mm? Lot easier and cheaper.
What size OCPD?
 

Pete999

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I often use radials domestic and commercial. There is some advantages to this. Testing is straightforward and installation in many ways. I usually do 32a. While I agree that wont work for some situations regarding C factors most of the time it does and more so for commercial. While you can do branching with radial circuits, much like the continental method I think it can become a nightmare later when additions and alterations come in to it. As well it is difficult to put three 4mm² into the terminations on sockets. It is a matter of judgement of course regards use of and future use as to whether a radial will be suitable load wise. Never had any problems so far with overloads.
You can, if you wish wore 1 non fused from a 4mm2 32 Amp radial in 2.5mm2 or if you want a fused spur in 1.5mm2, providing you don't go over 75M2 floor area.
 

telectrix

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Dishwasher.... Mrs Tel
Coffee maker.... Mrs Tel
Juicer.. ????
Smoothie maker...???
TVs...can't have 'er indoors watching telly i want my dinner.
Plate warmer .... for snowflakes
Steam oven .. she's got a steam iron
Plinth heater..for wimps
second ovens... no room
Instant hot water taps..... shower upstairs,
 

GBDamo

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Supporter
Dishwasher.... Mrs Tel
Coffee maker.... Mrs Tel
Juicer.. ????
Smoothie maker...???
TVs...can't have 'er indoors watching telly i want my dinner.
Plate warmer .... for snowflakes
Steam oven .. she's got a steam iron
Plinth heater..for wimps
second ovens... no room
Instant hot water taps..... shower upstairs,
Luddite!!
 

Pete999

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Arms
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Dishwasher.... Mrs Tel
Coffee maker.... Mrs Tel
Juicer.. ????
Smoothie maker...???
TVs...can't have 'er indoors watching telly i want my dinner.
Plate warmer .... for snowflakes
Steam oven .. she's got a steam iron
Plinth heater..for wimps
second ovens... no room
Instant hot water taps..... shower upstairs,
In my house at present smoothie maker AINT GOT ONE
Steam Iron in the cupboard
Fan heater for HID
Hot water Kettle
Tea Coffee Kettle
Plate
warmer who kin needs one
She has a TV what more can I say
Access to fresh air Patio Door Telephone extension
Boiler control near by
Like Tel Chauvinist and proud of it
Kick plate set in two inches so She can get closer to the sink
Kitchen all white to go with the wedding dress
Should I go on? remember the Son is a forum member so perhaps I had better STFU
 

telectrix

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i don't give a monkey's for all this pc shyte. if we'd had it back in 1940, we'd not have gone to war, afraid of offending despots with Charlie Chaplin moustaches .
 
....afraid of offending despots with Charlie Chaplin moustaches .
So that 's what Pythons "Ministry of silly walks is about" important training for the youth.
 
I've been using 4mm radial more recently but it's not a silver bullet due to C factors mentioned earlier. I've also started putting the washer dryer circuit on a ring - which is effectively 5mm - perfectly balanced and no sockets - just the connection units for both. If using MCBs on 4mm I usually start off with 20A and change it to 32 later but then I get a better idea about what was added - RCBO's a bit more expensive, so you need to be mindful of the cost. I think the next regs will see thermal efficiency on steroids and we'll be running heavier cables at low current.
 

Pete999

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Arms
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I've been using 4mm radial more recently but it's not a silver bullet due to C factors mentioned earlier. I've also started putting the washer dryer circuit on a ring - which is effectively 5mm - perfectly balanced and no sockets - just the connection units for both. If using MCBs on 4mm I usually start off with 20A and change it to 32 later but then I get a better idea about what was added - RCBO's a bit more expensive, so you need to be mindful of the cost. I think the next regs will see thermal efficiency on steroids and we'll be running heavier cables at low current.
Why 5mm on a ring
 

Dave OCD

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not me mate.i got no nerves. guy once told me i had the emotional responses of a house brick.
Are you telling me that the amazing unbelievable LFC comeback on Tuesday night didn't cause a flicker of emotion Tel ? I had tears on the go. :rolleyes::D
 

Ian1981

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I've been using 4mm radial more recently but it's not a silver bullet due to C factors mentioned earlier. I've also started putting the washer dryer circuit on a ring - which is effectively 5mm - perfectly balanced and no sockets - just the connection units for both. If using MCBs on 4mm I usually start off with 20A and change it to 32 later but then I get a better idea about what was added - RCBO's a bit more expensive, so you need to be mindful of the cost. I think the next regs will see thermal efficiency on steroids and we'll be running heavier cables at low current.
Deleted
 
Personally if your fed up with ring mains wire radials 2.5 mm off 20 amp mcb...easy
Oven
Personally if your fed up with ring mains wire radials 2.5 mm off 20 amp mcb...easy
2.8 KW oven, 3kw ish kettle = nuisance tripping.
 

Dave OCD

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All electric ovens [and most certainly one above 2kW] should be on a dedicated circuit [Or with a hob sharing the circuit].
 
Why do you not want to run a 32a ring?
the only issue with 4mm radials is the looping in and out of accessories can be tight.

The last kitchen job i done was overkill because the client had not an idea if they wanted 1.2kw kick space heaters etc :
x1 40a circuit for oven
x1 32a ring for all kitchen appliances and adjoining utility room
x1 32a ring for all sockets within the kitchen

over kill but wont get any issues with overloading, plus sometimes 4mm cable on a 32a is a grey area given installation method
 
put whatever you think is best, more is better than less, cable is the cheapest bit. Kitchens and bathrooms have become a major stage production.
BUT
what about the latest fashion here in New Zealand for 6kw++ induction hobs plus 1 or even 2 ovens?

We don't do ring circuits here in NZ but I would run at least 2 radial 2.5mm circuits around the benches ( for appliances, microwaves, rangehood, usb chargers etc etc) plus a 2.5 circuit to the island bench for the dual dishdrawer, instant hot water as well as a couple of 4mm or 6 mm circuits for the ovens and hobs. Yes there are some up market Kiwi kitchens that have 2 hobs and 2 ovens.
We never put clothes washer/dryers in the kitchen, they go in either the laundry or laundry alcove in the double or treble garage.
Oh and here in NZ 25amp breakers are as common as muck
 
What's the reason you don't want to put a ring final in for a kitchen? PS is this the same guy as all of a sudden we have threads galore on preferance to radials over rings??
 
S

Squid

i don't give a monkey's for all this pc shyte. if we'd had it back in 1940, we'd not have gone to war, afraid of offending despots with Charlie Chaplin moustaches .
History wasn't your best subject at school was it Tel...........

;o))))))))
 
S

Squid

I just love these "Smart TV's" with camera's that you can hack via the internet, managed to film a get together at Tel's when Pete was there with a couple of mates.........


 
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