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Discuss National championship in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Dave OCD

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It all seemed so easy, wall boxes just nailed to the upright timbers, cables taken in a straight line across the top and the DB enclosure pre fixed for them, no cleaning up either. I didn't have sound on, was it purely a competition based on speed ? If not I'd give them 3 out of 10 for quality.
My smileys won't work either. :)
 

davesparks

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Dave what do you mean shocking by UK standers
I mean by our standards the work on display is as rough as a badgers bum.
Cable runs all over the shop, no neat straight runs, holes drilled through studs at random heights, boxes nailed to studs etc etc.
 
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I spoke with a few American / Canadian sparks over the years and they could 'rough in' a brand new timber house on their own in under 2 days.
Bang boxes (boxes with nails on the side ready to bang home' , romex thrown in with sockets and lights mixed on the same breakers and generally no isolation switches at all any appliances just a receptacle behind to plug into. Only thing that would get a separate isolator was the cooker and air con unit.
They would pretty much drill joists and studs where ever they wanted and safe zones need not apply...
Second fix was all wire nuts and absolutely no testing of anything just switch on and hope for no bangs
 

Megawatt

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I spoke with a few American / Canadian sparks over the years and they could 'rough in' a brand new timber house on their own in under 2 days.
Bang boxes (boxes with nails on the side ready to bang home' , romex thrown in with sockets and lights mixed on the same breakers and generally no isolation switches at all any appliances just a receptacle behind to plug into. Only thing that would get a separate isolator was the cooker and air con unit.
They would pretty much drill joists and studs where ever they wanted and safe zones need not apply...
Second fix was all wire nuts and absolutely no testing of anything just switch on and hope for no bangs
Dusty the appliances have have isolation and it’s called the plugs as for the banging boxes just anywhere they want there was a schematic telling them where to put them, yes they drilled holes through the boards which is legal. The only thing I saw that they done wrong was every stud they drilled through should have a nail plate installed so the drywall people couldn’t drive a nail through it. That was so simple and if I did the terminations with wire nuts which I have never had a problem with and I know y’all use terminal blocks I wouldn’t hesitate to turn the power on. It was just so simple and that’s the way it’s done in the US
 
Megawatt , I have no issue with how you do your wiring.
Infact I quite like its simplicity. Timber frame makes for very quick and easy cable installation.
A very basic electrical code to follow makes installations easy and practical to duplicate on mass scale.
 

davesparks

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That was so simple and if I did the terminations with wire nuts which I have never had a problem with and I know y’all use terminal blocks I wouldn’t hesitate to turn the power on. It was just so simple and that’s the way it’s done in the US
But you turn the power in without any testing, this seems like madness to us.
How do you know if the circuit is safe to be turned on?
do you know that the earth is connected properly at each accessory before you turn the power on?
How can you know that the circuit breaker will disconnect a fault without earth loop impedance testing?
 

Megawatt

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But you turn the power in without any testing, this seems like madness to us.
How do you know if the circuit is safe to be turned on?
do you know that the earth is connected properly at each accessory before you turn the power on?
How can you know that the circuit breaker will disconnect a fault without earth loop impedance testing?
Dave I have never had to do a earth loop impedance test. I said if I done all the terminations yes I would not give it a second thought, if one of my electricians wired it I would be all over that checking their work. Cut the main and branch circuits off check all circuits to ground and turn them on one at a time. I have learned one thing and it seems y’all are covered up with paper work. The very first thing I do is check the bonding of the panel which to me is the most important
 
Words fail me. . .
Fret not , plenty of hobby books(of US-origin) full for "questionable designs were the starting point for my interest in "Electronics",
110V to earth is so much less risky . For a dry skinned human.
(Similar to how 1kV can jump through clothing ..)
 

Megawatt

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Fret not , plenty of hobby books(of US-origin) full for "questionable designs were the starting point for my interest in "Electronics",
110V to earth is so much less risky . For a dry skinned human.
(Similar to how 1kV can jump through clothing ..)
Staticzap I took electrical safety classes and it don’t take but 1 Milli amp to go across your heart and kill someone. You being in electronics should know all about resistance as dry skin and oily skin
 

Megawatt

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Staticzap I took electrical safety classes and it don’t take but 1 Milli amp to go across your heart and kill someone. You being in electronics should know all about resistance as dry skin and oily skin
Static where I live there is a tower on my property that has 220,000 volts and it will jump out 11 feet and get you
 
Staticzap I took electrical safety classes and it don’t take but 1 Milli amp to go across your heart and kill someone.
I'm not saying receiving a shock is "Very professional"
Our on site transformers are 55-0-55 for an even safer life , (in UK weather -!)
 

davesparks

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Dave I have never had to do a earth loop impedance test. I said if I done all the terminations yes I would not give it a second thought, if one of my electricians wired it I would be all over that checking their work. Cut the main and branch circuits off check all circuits to ground and turn them on one at a time. I have learned one thing and it seems y’all are covered up with paper work. The very first thing I do is check the bonding of the panel which to me is the most important
Why have you never had to do an earth loop impedance test? Do you have another means of proving the earthing of your circuits?
Everyone makes mistakes, it is human nature, to state that just because i have made the terminations it must be safe to switch on is very arrogant.

I wouldn't say we are covered up in paperwork, but we do carry out testing to ensure that systems are safe and compliant.

What exactly do you mean by the bonding of the panel? I know bonding means something different in the US. Do you test it or just check it visually?
 

Megawatt

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Why have you never had to do an earth loop impedance test? Do you have another means of proving the earthing of your circuits?
Everyone makes mistakes, it is human nature, to state that just because i have made the terminations it must be safe to switch on is very arrogant.

I wouldn't say we are covered up in paperwork, but we do carry out testing to ensure that systems are safe and compliant.

What exactly do you mean by the bonding of the panel? I know bonding means something different in the US. Do you test it or just check it visually?
Dave I’m sorry if I seemed arrogant I’m just confident. Yes we all make mistakes, but in the US we have to drive 2 ground rods at least 6 feet apart take # 6 bare wire and terminate it on the neutral bar down to one rod unbroken and # 6 from the first rod to the second rod. I hope you understand if you don’t do that correctly you will have what we call a floating neutral and every single pole 120vac breaker will have as much as 180vac which can and will burn up TV clocks etc. sorry I came across wrong
 

Megawatt

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Dave I’m sorry if I seemed arrogant I’m just confident. Yes we all make mistakes, but in the US we have to drive 2 ground rods at least 6 feet apart take # 6 bare wire and terminate it on the neutral bar down to one rod unbroken and # 6 from the first rod to the second rod. I hope you understand if you don’t do that correctly you will have what we call a floating neutral and every single pole 120vac breaker will have as much as 180vac which can and will burn up TV clocks etc. sorry I came across wrong
Dave The NEC states that the first panel must be bonded with the grounding conductor and any sub fed panel after that you have to isolate the grounded conductors from the grounding conductors. All the paperwork we do is draw a permit for what we are going to do and when you are finished you have to call code enforcement for a final inspection if you pass that the power company will hook up your power.
 

Megawatt

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Dave The NEC states that the first panel must be bonded with the grounding conductor and any sub fed panel after that you have to isolate the grounded conductors from the grounding conductors. All the paperwork we do is draw a permit for what we are going to do and when you are finished you have to call code enforcement for a final inspection if you pass that the power company will hook up your power.
Dave if I had to come to the UK and start doing electrical work I would be lost
 
B

Bobster

But you turn the power in without any testing, this seems like madness to us.
How do you know if the circuit is safe to be turned on?

They don't.

do you know that the earth is connected properly at each accessory before you turn the power on?

They sometimes will do a continuity check.

How can you know that the circuit breaker will disconnect a fault without earth loop impedance testing?

They don't it is assumed that following wire sizing from the NEC will have calculated all of that. Generally wiring is over sized.
Unfortunately the above is why there are so many electrical fires.
 

Pete999

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I spoke with a few American / Canadian sparks over the years and they could 'rough in' a brand new timber house on their own in under 2 days.
Bang boxes (boxes with nails on the side ready to bang home' , romex thrown in with sockets and lights mixed on the same breakers and generally no isolation switches at all any appliances just a receptacle behind to plug into. Only thing that would get a separate isolator was the cooker and air con unit.
They would pretty much drill joists and studs where ever they wanted and safe zones need not apply...
Second fix was all wire nuts and absolutely no testing of anything just switch on and hope for no bangs
Been there and seen it for real, rough as my Lads' scraggly facial hair, only joking Son
 

davesparks

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Dave I’m sorry if I seemed arrogant I’m just confident. Yes we all make mistakes, but in the US we have to drive 2 ground rods at least 6 feet apart take # 6 bare wire and terminate it on the neutral bar down to one rod unbroken and # 6 from the first rod to the second rod. I hope you understand if you don’t do that correctly you will have what we call a floating neutral and every single pole 120vac breaker will have as much as 180vac which can and will burn up TV clocks etc. sorry I came across wrong
I understand that, and why you do it. But if I was fitting earth rods for an installation I would install an 8' rod then test it to see what resistance to earth it gives. Then I would add rods or extend that one as necessary to achieve a suitable resistance to earth.
As soil conditions vary from area to area the resistance to earth can be wildly different, so how do can you apply a universal rule of 2 rods 6' apart?

In the past I've achieved around 20 ohms with a pair of 8' rods in one location and elsewhere driven a pair of rods 24' deep in made up ground and just got under 200 ohms.
 
The NEC code is pretty much a paint by numbers rule book.
The installation method is pretty basic as is the paperwork trail.
It’s a rudimentary system but has to be admired for its simplicity.
They have some very odd terminology and their bonding grounding system is pretty unusual for us as is having mixed lights and sockets on one breaker.
But it’s just how they do it....
 

Megawatt

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Unfortunately the above is why there are so many electrical fires.
The only electrical fires is from people plugging space heaters in to outlets that is marked for general use only and using drop cords. I have never had a problem with my work and I try and educate people on what not to do. Be real all they did in the ideal championship was 1 room, of course I would turn it on
 

DPG

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The only electrical fires is from people plugging space heaters in to outlets that is marked for general use only and using drop cords.
So there are no fires in America caused by loose connections?
 
B

Bobster

The only electrical fires is from people plugging space heaters in to outlets that is marked for general use only and using drop cords. I have never had a problem with my work and I try and educate people on what not to do. Be real all they did in the ideal championship was 1 room, of course I would turn it on
Home electrical
fires account for an estimated 51,000 fires each year, nearly than 500 deaths, more than 1,400 injuries, and $1.3 billion in property damage
In 2018 in the UK there were just over 2000 electrical fires. However I can't make the comparison with statistics here, as there are so many more houses in the US.
 
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Pete999

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The only electrical fires is from people plugging space heaters in to outlets that is marked for general use only and using drop cords. I have never had a problem with my work and I try and educate people on what not to do. Be real all they did in the ideal championship was 1 room, of course I would turn it on
Megawatt, sorry can't agree with you statement in the above post regarding electrical fires and space heaters being the only cause of electrical fires, one of the causes, I grant you, the only cause, come on smell the Roses Mate.
 

davesparks

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The only electrical fires is from people plugging space heaters in to outlets that is marked for general use only and using drop cords. I have never had a problem with my work and I try and educate people on what not to do.
Wow, so there has never been a fire from a loose connection, shirt circuit, conductive dust ingress, trapped conductor etc etc?

If I had never done any inspection or testing then I could probably also say I've never had a problem with my work. However I do carry out testing and have on rare occasions found a problem with my work which ive put right before turning things on.
 
B

Bobster

Wow, so there has never been a fire from a loose connection, shirt circuit, conductive dust ingress, trapped conductor etc etc?

If I had never done any inspection or testing then I could probably also say I've never had a problem with my work. However I do carry out testing and have on rare occasions found a problem with my work which ive put right before turning things on.
Dave, don't forget I bet most immediate faults are found with the good old fashioned bang test.

I know I've seen a few found in the states watching electricians follow this method.
 

Megawatt

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So there are no fires in America caused by loose connections?
Not that I’m aware of and Dave you just misunderstood of how we do things in America, we don’t just wire something up and walk away. I’ve been doing this work for 32 years and yes something as simple as one room yes I would turn on after I checked the worked. We are not idiots and we are inspected by state certified inspectors. Like you l shake my head at some of the things I have seen and read on this forum. We are professionals and stand by our work
 
B

Bobster

Not that I’m aware of and Dave you just misunderstood of how we do things in America, we don’t just wire something up and walk away. I’ve been doing this work for 32 years and yes something as simple as one room yes I would turn on after I checked the worked. We are not idiots and we are inspected by state certified inspectors. Like you l shake my head at some of the things I have seen and read on this forum. We are professionals and stand by our work
Seen 8 close to fires and 1 small fire caused by wire nuts. (loose/poor connections).

I'm not saying the UK is infallible, far from it. However all of your responses come through the view of rose tinted glasses it seems.
 

Megawatt

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Seen 8 close to fires and 1 small fire caused by wire nuts. (loose/poor connections).

I'm not saying the UK is infallible, far from it. However all of your responses come through the view of rose tinted glasses it seems.
Rob had to be in your country
 
B

Bobster

Rob had to be in your country
I haven't worked in the UK for 14months now.

Most of my work now is in the USA with some stints in Germany. So what I am saying is first hand experience.

The UK doesn't use wire nuts. They did try to introduce them, but they never took off.
 
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