Negotiations going as expected....

[Des 56]

Article 50 is available for any state to withdraw,its also a very strict deterrent to those who would want to withdraw,that is the main and only idea of that get out clause
If its triggered,all the cards of the country wishing to withdraw are played

The Eu can then set the agenda whilst under no obligation to make any kinds of deals that may not suit that agenda,it is a no win gamble by any country embarking on that course
If we leave without a trade deal (never mind the repercussions or not for the EU)it will have wide ranging negative effects for the country irrespective of how its glossed over

We are and will be, as warned,in a "no win" situation that the young will have to bear in the future,its the cost of a silly decision and its a decision that definitely will be regretted in times to come

Imagine the situation where we are unable to agree a trade deal with our nearest neighbour and main trading partner and a huge section of the world trade economy
If we can't agree with our neighbours,we have no hope in hell of getting trade deals worldwide with other countries who have their own deals and friends to placate in the short term
It always takes many years to make trade deals whatever countries are involved

The EU has the upper hand and was always going to have the upper hand,it does so irrespective of the situation we find ourselves in where we have a government with no idea of what they want negotiating with a trade block that needs to know what it is we want before they can respond

Its a sorry situation where MPs are going to have to deliver on a decision when very few of them agreed with the decision that was made
The bed has been made,its no good moaning about how those nasty EU folk are treating us,lets remember the whole sorry saga was instigated by ourselves

 

[Octopus]

Trigering artical 50 was about the UK leaving the EU, nothing else. Trade deals are a seperate thing entirely, we requested early talks on our trading relationship with the EU and as it would be to the EUs benifit as well as the UKs the EU agreed to early talks as long as sufficient progress had been made in the exit negotions, mainly the settlement figure, EUs citizens rights and the Irish border. This has not happened.
.

Not sure I agree with this!

Read item 2 below!

Article 50

• 
• 

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

SO:

"future relationship" can easily be interpreted to include trade, along with the rights of citizens.

The EU have been banging on about the rights of citizens, yet keeping very quiet about trade.

I don't think the EU are playing by the same set of rules as this article was intended.

 

[andyb]

Sorry Murdoch, I don't agree

taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.

as meaning a trade deal, these take years to complete. I take it to mean taking into account what type of relationship, the framework.

"future relationship" can easily be interpreted to include trade, along with the rights of citizens.

That's not article 50. it's someones interpretation of it. I'd need to know the source before I give it any credence.

 

[Octopus]

Article 50 - http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

 

[Octopus]

Sorry Murdoch, I don't agree as meaning a trade deal, these take years to complete. I take it to mean taking into account what type of relationship, the framework.
.

Taking into account - so then we can ignore the human rights bits too

Don't be daft - future relationship encompasses EVERYTHING

 

[andyb]

Taking into account - so then we can ignore the human rights bits too

Don't be daft - future relationship encompasses EVERYTHING

If taking into account the framework means everything has to be settled in 2 years (18 months in reality) then I fear they've understimated the amount of time required, probally to the tune of 10 years.

Not sure what your point is with human rights.

 

[Octopus]

Not sure what your point is with human rights.

The EU have been banging on about the rights of EU citizens in the UK, and having the ECJ "over" the UK....................... yet saying they won't discuss trade ............. if they hurt the UK, they will only be hurting themselves ........................ far more jobs in the EU depend on the UK than in the UK on the EU...............................

 

[Octopus]

At the end of the day all this mess is Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's fault - they were at the helm and promised the UK a vote on the Lisbon treaty ................ which the UK would have rejected ............................halting further meddling from Brussels

That's it in a nutshell.

The EEC - YES

The EU with an army, and un-elected politicians calling the shots - NO

 

[telectrix]

wha t we need here really is thatcher reather than may,old mags would have told them eu prtts wher to get off.may is too soft.

 

[sparksburnout]

We cannot allow these bureaucrat's to dither and pontificate over what they think is a suitable "punishment". It is quite obvious that the current delegation of "negotiators" are just a bunch of self proclaimed power crazy politicians who care for nothing other than to be seen to be the ones who oversee what they hope will be the demise and humiliation of the UK for having the audacity to leave. I really believe they think that they are some kind of supreme power. If they had been more realistic and stuck to the basic ethos of the original EEC then we would not be facing this exit. For me, I think the time is rapidly approaching where we give them a firm shot over the bows and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they do not start to talk properly and in a sensible time-frame then we will simply up sticks and walk away. Remaining in the single market was never an option anyway, and anyone who thought it was without giving away too much should have got themselves a bit more clued up before they voted in the first place. Its about time we grasped the nettle and stopped listening to the doubters and those with no faith in our country. We do not, and never have, needed these people to prosper on our own merit. We have far too much work to do fostering trade and re-kindling our former partnerships with non-EU countries to let these childish antics drag us down. We should tell them that we are not prepared to wait until the end of November, and that we will be back to resume talks in two weeks, or never.
They don't like it up em, you know.

 

[andyb]

wha t we need here really is thatcher reather than may,old mags would have told them eu prtts wher to get off.may is too soft.

Tell, go to bed. You're drunk.

 

[Dave Rudderham]

I'm a leave voter and my enthusiasm for it has been eroded by constant doom mongering from self important remain leaders who are more concerned about losing their gold plated post-MP jobs and pensions, and the opinion of those negotiating on behalf of the EU that we must concede to everything EU demands and those on the UK side that we must get everything our own way. (And those idiots who misread a slogan on a coach)
I for one voted to leave the political body known as the European Union and not Europe.

 

[andyb]

I'm a leave voter and my enthusiasm for it has been eroded by constant doom mongering from self important remain leaders who are more concerned about losing their gold plated post-MP jobs and pensions, and the opinion of those negotiating on behalf of the EU that we must concede to everything EU demands and those on the UK side that we must get everything our own way. (And those idiots who misread a slogan on a coach)
I for one voted to leave the political body known as the European Union and not Europe.

I find it bizarre that you put the blame for the situation we're in now at the feet of a few so called 'remain leaders' sugesting that they're worried about post MP jobs, and not at the feet of the either foreign or tax exil billionaire newspaper proprietors who pay no tax in this country and use there media as a propaganda tool. Those and the millionaire tory brexiters who want to keep their precious British overseas tax havens open that the EU are now starting to go after.

Oh! and the idiots who believe whatevers written on the side of a big red bus.

 

[Dave Rudderham]

I find it bizarre that you put the blame for the situation we're in now at the feet of a few so called 'remain leaders' sugesting that they're worried about post MP jobs, and not at the feet of the either foreign or tax exil billionaire newspaper proprietors who pay no tax in this country and use there media as a propaganda tool. Those and the millionaire tory brexiters who want to keep their precious British overseas tax havens open that the EU are now starting to go after.

Oh! and the idiots who believe whatevers written on the side of a big red bus.

You may have misread or misinterpreted what I have said. I haven't just "put the blame at the feet of a few so called remain leaders." I'm putting the blame squarely on everyone who is working against an amicable split, both sides of the vote and both sides of the water. We've gone back to playground politics. I keep expecting David Davies to come crying that someone nicked his lolly pop and Michel Barnier saying well he took my twix first.

Oh, and it was a coach, not a bus

 

[Des 56]

For me, I think the time is rapidly approaching where we give them a firm shot over the bows and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they do not start to talk properly and in a sensible time-frame then we will simply up sticks and walk away.


Lets hope we don't make matters worse than they certainly will be,we have made enough misjudgements to date
Remember who holds all the cards, its more like damage limitation that we need

 

[andyb]

Oh, and it was a coach, not a bus

Good point Dave. The brexiters missed a trick there, imagine how many more lies they could of put on a double decker bus.

 

[sparksburnout]

For me, I think the time is rapidly approaching where we give them a firm shot over the bows and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they do not start to talk properly and in a sensible time-frame then we will simply up sticks and walk away.


Lets hope we don't make matters worse than they certainly will be,we have made enough misjudgements to date
Remember who holds all the cards, its more like damage limitation that we need

But how much worse can it get? It is quite clear to me, that the belligerent attitude demonstrated by the EU negotiators make it obvious that all they are interested in is showing the rest of the member states that we will be punished for leaving. It is equally clear, that to simply demand that we pay their "bill" for so doing before any proper negotiations take place, is tantamount to blackmail. We need to force this issue, and hope that by taking a hard line these child-like apologies of European "democrats" will be replaced by people with more sense. Frankly it is no more than I expected and only reinforces my opinion that we need to leave them behind. And as for this bloody bus, I wish people would stop making cheap and unfounded political point scoring out of it. There was never an inference that the whole of the EU "subscription" was going to be transferred straight to the NHS, it was merely underlining the fact that we will be able to decide where we spend the money, whatever the figure is, on what we want to rather than a new road system in Portugal or whatever.

 

[UNG]

I find it bizarre that you put the blame for the situation we're in now at the feet of a few so called 'remain leaders' sugesting that they're worried about post MP jobs, and not at the feet of the either foreign or tax exil billionaire newspaper proprietors who pay no tax in this country and use there media as a propaganda tool. Those and the millionaire tory brexiters who want to keep their precious British overseas tax havens open that the EU are now starting to go after.

Oh! and the idiots who believe whatevers written on the side of a big red bus.

The problem the remainers have is with their definition of democracy and the perceived uninformed total stupidity of those voting for brexit. The bickering and infighting that brexit has caused is doing nothing to help any negotiating position the UK has

There are a hell of a lot more Labour hangers on worried about their EU gravy train hitting the buffers than tory tax haven billionaires

Everybody bangs on about the red bus the remain campaign didn't have anything positive to put on their bus. Vote to stay in the The blatantly corrupt EU wouldn't be a good selling point

For me, I think the time is rapidly approaching where we give them a firm shot over the bows and tell them in no uncertain terms that if they do not start to talk properly and in a sensible time-frame then we will simply up sticks and walk away.


Lets hope we don't make matters worse than they certainly will be,we have made enough misjudgements to date
Remember who holds all the cards, its more like damage limitation that we need

Exactly who does hold all the cards there are far too many meddlers trying to influence the final outcome with credit agencies, money markets, MP's, MEP's, other government leaders, business men and women and many more all pontificating on the situation in order to protect their position or more likely make money

Parts of Europe have long had a not so hidden agenda that has been ongoing for many years to takeover and rule Europe unfortunately the brexit vote has put a bit of a spanner in the works
After Cameron's headless chicken negotiations for a deal and the all but immediate rebuttle of it by various EU leaders I think it really shows it's arrogant stance to any negotiation as it goes against their overall agenda
When it comes to the money side of it we know what we are paying now but with the EU's ongoing invasion of quest to expand into other countries in Europe who have nothing to contribute what will be our bill be in 10 years time

 

[telectrix]

trime to take the soft gloves off and tellthe tw4ats where to get off. we did it in 1945. let's show the buggers what us brits are made of again.

deal?? who needs it. we don't need no stinking deal.

 

[andyb]

I don't see how walking away from the negotiations will do any good. Leaving aside the childish quotes like 'they don't like it up them' or 'take the soft gloves off' whats the point?
We will be leaving the EU in March 2019 agreement or not. A good compromise agreement between both sides will greatly benefit both the UK and the EU, what would you think if the EU walked away from negotiations? or more to the point what do you think the Express or Mail would splash across the front page.
I don't see how we can have anything other a very hard brexit and it will be bad for the UK, but there you go, that's what was voted for. But if we do not finalize our contractual obligations it will make it very dificult to do deals with other countries when we're out.

Oh! and I put 'Let's fund our NHS instead' into Google translate and it does come up with 'decide where we spend the money' So it seems I was wrong. I do feel silly.