Discuss Pub / Restaurant refurb Upgrade Boards or not? in the Commercial Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Pip

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Hi Guys,
Been asked to look at an old rambling pub/restaurant/ hotel by the new tenants.
8 letting bedrooms, bar / restaurant area, couple of conference/function rooms, commercial kitchen, c/w large freezers etc...
Some areas are a bit messy, mainly the boiler room which was condemned a while back and they are in discussion with a heating company on that one.
LPG for the ovens and hob in the kitchen.

Need to double check but suspect a TT system to the building as it's a rural location.
Initial view was EICR and go from there, but after the tour it might be as cost effective to change some stuff now, Opening date June 1st so...

3 phase incomer to original board (DB1) feeding various loads in the kitchen, Coffee machine, 2 x deep fat fryers (3 phase!)
Also single phase breakers to 4 old wired Wylex sub boards around the building. Some breakers are feeding more than one sub board
DB2 in the kitchen feeding sockets & lighting etc full distribution to be confirmed.
DB3 in the bar area, 8 way again sockets and lighting,
DB4 & DB4A on the ground floor a 10 way, general sockets & lighting, Function rooms ground floor and 1st floor rooms 1 - 4 sockets and lighting, and immersion heater.
DB4A a 4 way feeding new 8.5Kw electric showers in the rooms
DB5 & DB5A on the 1st floor doing the same for rooms 5 - 8 on the 2nd floor. No immersion.
DB5A a 4 way feeding new 8.5Kw electric showers in the rooms
DB6 feeding tenant attic bedrooms, this looks to be recently refurbished, 63A RCD feeding 2 circuits sockets & lighting.
The tenant Kitchen / living room / master bedroom I'm not sure where thats fed from.

I can not confirm size of cable feeding these sub boards, and I need to revisit to check the size of the breakers.
No RCD protection anywhere in the main building.
No plan to rewire the place or add to existing circuits, that is the least of my concerns, strip back and redecorate throughout.

8.5Kw showers on 6mm T&E ! Some may be replaced with hot and cold water mixer showers, depends on plumbing.

So your thoughts on how to approach this?

Replace Main board DB1 so splitting the load to the original boards on RCBO's ? Problem here is discrimination
Replacing the sub boards feeding the rooms to RCBO's on all circuits ? (Favoured)
Install RCCD's on the kitchen and bar fuse boards and leave alone?
(Space is resticted in the bar area)
Get as many showers converted to hot and cold mixer style.
Those not able to do this limit to 32 amps? (Not ideal)
A mixture of above?
Open can of worms and dive in or thanks a lot and walk away?
Any other ideas greatly appreciated

Pip
 
No plan to rewire the place or add to existing circuits, that is the least of my concerns, strip back and redecorate throughout.

Replace Main board DB1 so splitting the load to the original boards on RCBO's ? Problem here is discrimination
Replacing the sub boards feeding the rooms to RCBO's on all circuits ? (Favoured)

As for time discrimination wylex did have some time delayed rcbos a few years back think they were 45 amp... only ever saw a reference to them in a brochure. never actually come across them. others might know more.??
Having done quite a few pub conversions over the years when working for a sub contractor to one of the big breweries, If it was more than a few years old it was normally easier for us time wise to rip out and put new in and start from scratch, the pubs were normally plastered and decorated anyway so chasing wasnt an issue.

i do think though you would be best doing a very thorough eicr and then you will know what is lurking underneath as pubs are renowned for being a maze of wires and having bits added to bits over the years with no logical sequence followed. you will save yourself a lot of time later down the line. it might even pay to sketch it out so you have a diagram. there could be many a fault lurking in the numerous circuits.
 
My first thoughts are that in a hotel you're taking a gamble applying diversity to showers; when I worked in a hotel everything in the main house came from the main boiler room - 6 gas combi boilers then the hot water was stored in 2x calorifiers before being fed to a shower pump in each room. At peak time (in the morning) the room furthest from the boiler room would suffer from low pressure, as in low enough to generate complaints a lot of the time. This is likely to be the same time they're cooking the breakfasts, so if all the showers are electric there could be a high demand just before breakfast is served.
 
You need to clarify the earthing system as this is going to dictate circuit protection for circuits from DB1. If possible I would avoid additional rcd protection on any submain circuits and use 947-2 devices.
 
To be honest,i would not start with the technical list,on the basis of what you have already seen,i would have a conversation with the client,regarding expectation and expenditure,then work back from that.

No point stating a level of specification,which will not be rolled out across the installation,unless agreed beforehand.
 
G
My first thoughts are that in a hotel you're taking a gamble applying diversity to showers; when I worked in a hotel everything in the main house came from the main boiler room - 6 gas combi boilers then the hot water was stored in 2x calorifiers before being fed to a shower pump in each room. At peak time (in the morning) the room furthest from the boiler room would suffer from low pressure, as in low enough to generate complaints a lot of the time. This is likely to be the same time they're cooking the breakfasts, so if all the showers are electric there could be a high demand just before breakfast is served.
Good Point
 
As for time discrimination wylex did have some time delayed rcbos a few years back think they were 45 amp... only ever saw a reference to them in a brochure. never actually come across them. others might know more.??
Having done quite a few pub conversions over the years when working for a sub contractor to one of the big breweries, If it was more than a few years old it was normally easier for us time wise to rip out and put new in and start from scratch, the pubs were normally plastered and decorated anyway so chasing wasnt an issue.

i do think though you would be best doing a very thorough eicr and then you will know what is lurking underneath as pubs are renowned for being a maze of wires and having bits added to bits over the years with no logical sequence followed. you will save yourself a lot of time later down the line. it might even pay to sketch it out so you have a diagram. there could be many a fault lurking in the numerous circuits.
Many thanks. EICR is looking the best starting point, and yes I agree old pubs are a maze of wiring, this place is a rabbit warren just to walk around it.
 
Gr
You need to clarify the earthing system as this is going to dictate circuit protection for circuits from DB1. If possible I would avoid additional rcd protection on any submain circuits and use 947-2 devices.
Thanks for the advise, not had the need for 947-2 devices before but correct me if I'm wrong but I would be looking at 'Category B' Time Delayed and or 'Annex B' with RCD function Devices?
Yes need to check earthing system before going any further.
I may contact you again if you don't mind
 
To be honest,i would not start with the technical list,on the basis of what you have already seen,i would have a conversation with the client,regarding expectation and expenditure,then work back from that.

No point stating a level of specification,which will not be rolled out across the installation,unless agreed beforehand.
Another very good point. Yes a little more investigation on the property and manage the clients expectations as you say. Many thanks
 

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