questioning rcd re shower installation

[stewie in sutt]

Hi all,
just joined so first post.
Triton say their electric showers must be RCD protected. I was under the impression that manufacturers recommendations superseded electrical body's regulations but according to Elecsa's technical dept that is no longer the case. I was told that in the 18th edition the clause states that you must be aware of manufacturers recommendations. Am i missing something here or is this a step backwards.

 

[telectrix]

regs. state that MFI should be taken into account, i.e. sometimes they are wrong. in any case, BS7671 states that all circuits ib a special location ( bath/shower room ) must be RCD protected. in this case BS7671 anf MFI instructions are in harmony.both singing the same song.

 

[westward10]

I am sure Elesca's tech dept will be holding your hand in court should the worse happen.

 

[stewie in sutt]

Hi telectrix
I had this discussion/argument originally with an NIC sparky who said as I posted earlier, I was convinced he was wrong. but after speaking with Elecsa it appears he wasn't

 

[stewie in sutt]

I am sure Elesca's tech dept will be holding your hand in court should the worse happen.

Mmm, think you might be right there

 

[telectrix]

as i understand it, MFI should be followed if they comply with BS7671. . if not, they should be considered. then again, I'm old school. if it can't be sorted, hit it with a hammer.

 

[mattg4321]

Why would you not protect an electric shower with an RCD?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Hi all,
just joined so first post.
Triton say their electric showers must be RCD protected. I was under the impression that manufacturers recommendations superseded electrical body's regulations but according to Elecsa's technical dept that is no longer the case. I was told that in the 18th edition the clause states that you must be aware of manufacturers recommendations. Am i missing something here or is this a step backwards.

In general, manufacturers’ Instructions are to be taken into account.
However there are certain areas where the requirements are to comply with the Manufacturers’ Instructions.
Off the top of my head, any Type tested DB, some lighting installations and some medical equipment.

 

[westward10]

What is it you are doing stewie like for like replacement?

 

[stewie in sutt]

I would not want to install an electric shower without RCD protection, however if you tell the customer that it has to be installed with an RCd as per MFI and he/she is a smart arse and pulls some reg out of the air, you can look as though you're trying to stitch them over. It is a like for like replacement but even so as a professional fitting an RCD should be a matter of course.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

They’re going to have a hard time finding a Reg which says RCD protection isn’t required.

 

[Des 56]

Its all well taking manufacturers instructions into account,that is as long as a linguist with expertise in English words for Chinese and Japanese infant school interpretations is on hand

He would need to explain exactly or even in most cases give some idea of what information it is they intend to impart to the unlucky spark who initially reads the garbage

 

[Ian1981]

MF instructions are sometimes bizarre to say the least, I connected an oven for a family member the other day and the instructions said that this appliance must be or maybe was should be connected with a 45 amp fuse as the ocpd.
Does this mean that I can’t use an mcb rated at 32 or 40 amps as the ocpd? This is where I ignore them ha

 

[Andy78]

You can show them regulations and instructions. They aren't required to listen though. If they don't want an RCD fitting you can also walk off to a better customer.

 

[littlespark]

Hypothetical.

You’re asked to change a shower as old on is busted. OCPD is an mcb, no rcd. Like for like replacement? Do you fit an rcd to that circuit as per regs?

You’re asked to change a ceiling pendant. Old one is busted. OCPD is an mcb, no rcd. Like for like replacement? Do you fit an rcd as per regs?

I was going to use the “change a lightbulb” example, but the thread would just go into a bulb v lamp discussion, and we’ve covered that elsewhere a number of times.

 

[Andy78]

Hypothetical.

You’re asked to change a shower as old on is busted. OCPD is an mcb, no rcd. Like for like replacement? Do you fit an rcd to that circuit as per regs?

You’re asked to change a ceiling pendant. Old one is busted. OCPD is an mcb, no rcd. Like for like replacement? Do you fit an rcd as per regs?

I was going to use the “change a lightbulb” example, but the thread would just go into a bulb v lamp discussion, and we’ve covered that elsewhere a number of times.

The manufacturer's instructions for the light fitting would not require the fitting to be RCD protected. The shower's MI would.
Being of an understanding as to the hazards present with electricity in a shower area and the regulations that deal with these hazards I would tend to follow the shower's MI.
I would not see any need to add RCD protection to a lighting circuit for a change of fitting.

 

[StephenRowley]

however if you tell the customer that it has to be installed with an RCd as per MFI and he/she is a smart arse and pulls some reg out of the air, you can look as though you're trying to stitch them over.

Tell that customer to Oscar foxtrot and find they should find another sparkie

 

[littlespark]

The manufacturer's instructions for the light fitting would not require the fitting to be RCD protected. The shower's MI would.
Being of an understanding as to the hazards present with electricity in a shower area and the regulations that deal with these hazards I would tend to follow the shower's MI.
I would not see any need to add RCD protection to a lighting circuit for a change of fitting.

Give it time.
Im sure the MI of the shower mentions RCD protection now as it came into the regulations and the shower manufacturers followed afterwards.
Eventually, light fitting manufacturers will do the same.

 

[Andy78]

Give it time.
Im sure the MI of the shower mentions RCD protection now as it came into the regulations and the shower manufacturers followed afterwards.
Eventually, light fitting manufacturers will do the same.

I won't be holding my breath on that one knowing how out of touch most manufacturers are with such matters. I'll give it a decade then check again.

 

[Charlie_]

Manufacturers instructions should just contain that 1 line....
Must be installed by a suitably qualified electrician.

 

[davesparks]

I would not want to install an electric shower without RCD protection, however if you tell the customer that it has to be installed with an RCd as per MFI and he/she is a smart arse and pulls some reg out of the air, you can look as though you're trying to stitch them over. It is a like for like replacement but even so as a professional fitting an RCD should be a matter of course.

As a professional you will be fully aware of the current regulations and be able to give the customer the correct information, and be able to explain why an RCD is required and what it does to reduce the severity of any electric shock which occurs.

 

[Midwest]

Elecsa technical will only give you guidance on what the regulations state, in this case manufacturers instructions must be taken into account. They will not advice you on how to run your business.

If you feel you can install something and not follow MI, like in this instance, you’ll need to have carried out some sort of risk assessment to prove you’ve negated that risk, hypothetically speaking. If something goes wrong and you will be relying on your insurance company to back you up with wods of cash.

Doesn’t your prospective client understand the potential risk?