Two houses fed of one houses mains - what are my rights.

[Guywithahouse]

Keeping it brief. We recently had a utility room put in the back of our garage including new wiring and a new mini fusebox in the garage by certified electrician. Few weeks later smell burning from inside fusboard, the copper negative (i think that's right, it was copper with black plastic around it) had overheated and melted. Called the electrician and he said likley as you have exceeded voltage capacity due to dishwasher, washing machine and dryer being on at same time for example. He came round and took the inside fusebox lid off and tightened the wires and said should be ok now but dont use everything at once to be safe. So we didn't. Few weeks later smell burning again from fusebox, its really hot. Except nothing is on. So I decide fusebox is too old as its one the plastic case ones from seemingly when house was built in 1960s.

Electrcian is here today with new RCD board, all going well until he takes the main power feed wire to the fuseboard to change them over. 30 mins later western power guy is at the door asking if we're having work done as next doors power has gone.

Turns out both houses were linked up to the same 60v fusebox in our house, and he said they used to do it like that way back when to save time and money!

So here i am £450 down with the current electrician and western power are saying the fusboards need to be separated by western power at no cost to us.

But for me I'm already 450 down for something that turns out wasn't our fault.

 

[snowhead]

The electrical supply being connected to the next door house has not caused your problem.
It wasn't linked to YOUR fusebox, it was linked to Western Powers main incomer fuse.

If it was linked to your fusebox then you would have been paying for your neighbours electricity use and they've been paying nothing.

 

[7029 dave]

It's a shared cutout fuse, its good that wpd will separate it, let your electrician carry on with your issue.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Please post pictures of your setup. What the electrician is saying doesn't make sense.

• Melting connections are always due to either damaged or incorrect equipment, or bad workmanship. It should not be possible to melt or overheat anything by using too many appliances. The electrician is not permitted to connect anything new to inadequate or defective existing equipment.
• Likewise, there is no reason for an electrician to say 'don't use everything at once to be safe.' The worst that should happen with excessive load is to cause a breaker to trip or fuse to blow, and in a domestic installation that shouldn't normally happen either.
• Any part of the wiring that is shared between the houses on a shared service, the electrician is not allowed to touch because it is before the meter. Therefore he cannot have charged you for any work that could have been a consequence of the shared service. Otherwise, as per @snowhead the other house would have been getting their power through your meter and you would have been paying for it. I can't imagine why anybody would have been so daft as to wire that up, unless someone once owned both houses and the neighbours have not realised that electricity is not free!

 

[littlespark]

Take photographs of everything you can showing what is connected to what and describe where you think the neighbours are getting power from.

So far, we are getting confused.

Sorry to say that your “electrician” can’t be up to much if he hasn’t found the problem on first visit.

 

[brianmoooore]

I'm trying to work out how your electrician managed to cut off power to next door. The only possibility I can think of is that he pulled the service fuse to make the tails to the consumer dead, and that the feed to next door was after the fuse.
I've seen plenty of case where the service cable comes into one property, then feeds back out of the head to next door, but the fuse in the first property only serves that property, and next door has its own head.

 

[Flanders]

Agree with Lucien My concern is the melting neutral. The only reason this would happen is due to a loose connection due to poor workmanship not overloading the circuit. If you had overloaded the circuit. Then the fuse or mcb should of operated to prevent the overheating.

 

[Guywithahouse]

Please post pictures of your setup. What the electrician is saying doesn't make sense.

• Melting connections are always due to either damaged or incorrect equipment, or bad workmanship. It should not be possible to melt or overheat anything by using too many appliances. The electrician is not permitted to connect anything new to inadequate or defective existing equipment.
• Likewise, there is no reason for an electrician to say 'don't use everything at once to be safe.' The worst that should happen with excessive load is to cause a breaker to trip or fuse to blow, and in a domestic installation that shouldn't normally happen either.
• Any part of the wiring that is shared between the houses on a shared service, the electrician is not allowed to touch because it is before the meter. Therefore he cannot have charged you for any work that could have been a consequence of the shared service. Otherwise, as per @snowhead the other house would have been getting their power through your meter and you would have been paying for it. I can't imagine why anybody would have been so daft as to wire that up, unless someone once owned both houses and the neighbours have not realised that electricity is not free!

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Copper bit with black around melter. I don't know exactly how it works, but basically the western power guy said next door might need to have their drive taken up as they have no direct power, it comes from our side of the house and a wire through the wall, but it all affected our fusebox... I think. Its now been replaced with an RCD board. Western power are due out to separate the wires.

 

[Guywithahouse]

Please post pictures of your setup. What the electrician is saying doesn't make sense.

• Melting connections are always due to either damaged or incorrect equipment, or bad workmanship. It should not be possible to melt or overheat anything by using too many appliances. The electrician is not permitted to connect anything new to inadequate or defective existing equipment.
• Likewise, there is no reason for an electrician to say 'don't use everything at once to be safe.' The worst that should happen with excessive load is to cause a breaker to trip or fuse to blow, and in a domestic installation that shouldn't normally happen either.
• Any part of the wiring that is shared between the houses on a shared service, the electrician is not allowed to touch because it is before the meter. Therefore he cannot have charged you for any work that could have been a consequence of the shared service. Otherwise, as per @snowhead the other house would have been getting their power through your meter and you would have been paying for it. I can't imagine why anybody would have been so daft as to wire that up, unless someone once owned both houses and the neighbours have not realised that electricity is not free!

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I don't know how all of this works, but basically when he pulled the black wires out to disconnect the electric, it knocked next doors out, they called western power who came out and said both our fuseboards were running off the same volt supply and likley all the houses in the street are the same unless they've had new electrics. Said modern day life means people are finding out about it now because of the strain on the voltage supply.

Or maybe it was all a load of waffle.

 

[Guywithahouse]

 

[LewisM]

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Copper bit with black around melter. I don't know exactly how it works, but basically the western power guy said next door might need to have their drive taken up as they have no direct power, it comes from our side of the house and a wire through the wall, but it all affected our fusebox... I think. Its now been replaced with an RCD board. Western power are due out to separate the wires.

Surprised that the neutral melted there that's a factory termination

 

[Guywithahouse]

I don't know how all of this works, but basically when he pulled the black wires out to disconnect the electric, it knocked next doors out, they called western power who came out and said both our fuseboards were running off the same volt supply and likley all the houses in the street are the same unless they've had new electrics. Said modern day life means people are finding out about it now because of the strain on the voltage supply.

Or maybe it was all a load of waffle.

 

[westward10]

Seen that happen on those Proteus boards before. Pulling the service head fuse will kill next doors power, theirs and yours are protected by the same service head fuse. The electrician should have realised this it is staring them in the face.
Is the rcbo on the left of the mcbs the new circuit, I am amazed they managed to connect into it as it must nearly be touching the earth bar.

 

[7029 dave]

Thanks for the pics, yes its a shared cutout fuse, the melted busbar is part of the consumer unit, it must of been loose, although factory fitted. I always check for tightness.

 

[Guywithahouse]

Seen that happen on those Proteus boards before. Pulling the service head fuse will kill next doors power, theirs and yours are protected by the same service head fuse. The electrician should have realised this it is staring them in the face.
Is the rcbo on the left of the mcbs the new circuit, I am amazed they managed to connect into it as it must nearly be touching the earth bar.

No idea what you're asking me but irl try and take a picture tomorrow of the new board.

 

[Guywithahouse]

Thanks for the pics, yes its a shared cutout fuse, the melted busbar is part of the consumer unit, it must of been loose, although factory fitted. I always check for tightness.

This electrician came out a few weeks before and tightened all of the connections, yet it still got hot and burned again?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The melting was caused by a loose screw, simple as that. Where the flat copper neutral link from the bottom of the main switch is screwed on to the right hand end of the brass terminal bar (with all the black neutral wires) the screw was loose and the resulting resistance caused the bar to overheat. If the contact surfaces were not properly cleaned before re-tightening the screw, the tarnish layer formed by the first round of overheating would have continued to cause poor contact and more heating. There's no mystery here, it was a bad connection not put right. Nothing to do with next door.

The sparky presumably pulled out the DNO's main fuse, which as noted above is shared by the two houses, and at that point they lost their supply. He should have spotted that and not pulled the fuse, although it's not a bad thing to get the two houses onto separate supplies now that you are some way down that path.

 

[Deleted account]

The melting in your board has nothing to do with the western power issue. That is an issue that has become apparent during works. So th3y will not be liable for works.

I see the supply conductors under your board going through the wall. Those cables are a very old type of cable no longer recognised in the regs. cloth covered.

western power definitely need to sort that.

In fairness to your electrician there is not much of next doors feeds on show, so he could have missed it.

tightness of connections does help, but if an installation is overloaded it will still melt. If the insulation has been d@maged an the neutral bar once it may have lost its integrity and be more susceptible to heat In future.

 

[brianmoooore]

In fairness to your electrician there is not much of next doors feeds on show, so he could have missed it.

Only if he did the work in the dark with sunglasses on. The wires going through the wall are right in the middle of the work area.

 

[7029 dave]

Only if he did the work in the dark with sunglasses on. The wires going through the wall are right in the middle of the work area.

Arrangements with the next door neighbour should have been made before pulling the fuse fairy.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Most DNO would have separated the houses with each own fuses. and both house should have their own main isolater.

 

[ipf]

Two fuses in the one premises was the usual way of sorting it.

 

[Deleted account]

Only if he did the work in the dark with sunglasses on. The wires going through the wall are right in the middle of the work area.

Two fuses in the one premises was the usual way of sorting it.

View attachment 64436

ive seen two feeds from one intake, but never one like that where the tails go directly through wall without any protection.

 

[ipf]

ive seen two feeds from one intake, but never one like that where the tails go directly through wall without any protection.

Called 'em out and they were sorting it an hour later. All OK.
The earth to next door was via the conduit. You can just make out the clamp connection above it.

PS. It's like the initial photo but with two fuses for protection, with a common neutral.

 

[Teddy Lop]

Only if he did the work in the dark with sunglasses on. The wires going through the wall are right in the middle of the work area.

aye, its a cobble of a job but I've seen a few, you got to be a bit wet behind the ears/hungover/whats your excuse to miss it.

that and the guff about too many appliances being on, I'd be seeking an alternative opinion OP. Did you get installation cert and BC notification?

 

[freddo]

That's pretty poor work, I would not feel happy tightening that terminal in the burnt area and saying all is good, that connection is a known failure point in these consumer units, I've seen 2 now where a large hole has burned in the top of the enclosure over the neutral bar. Did he not recommend replacing the unit at the first overheating?

The bloke must have been blind to not have seen the other supply going through the wall, fed from the same fuse. That's a fairly old old cutout, I don't think I'd be pulling the fuse on it, not that I've ever removed a cutout fuse before.

That RCBO is not designed to fit in that consumer unit. It has has even been filed down on the front top part of the RCBO to get it to fit in the consumer unit...

 

[Guywithahouse]

I have an electrical installation record thing but not sure what a BC Certificate is

 

[freddo]

BC is Building Control. Replacing a consumer unit is notifiable work. To prove it has been notified you should have been sent a one page certificate either via the electrician or posted directly to your house. A sample certificate is shown here.

 

[Wilko]

As above, the fuse is shared and power branches to your meter and to your neighbour’s installation (via the steel conduit). I agree this has not caused your problem.

 

[Guywithahouse]

Thanks, everyone i accept the overuse of electricals has not caused the issue thanks for all your advice.

 

[Guywithahouse]

Without putting myself at direct embarrassment, how much is average cost to replace the fuseboard with a modem one.

 

[Guywithahouse]

As above, the fuse is shared and power branches to your meter and to your neighbour’s installation (via the steel conduit). I agree this has not caused your problem.

View attachment 64542

Thanks for this as when everyone was saying its well obvious I had no idea where to look. He said something like he has been doing it 20 years and never seen one go through a wall, I think he thought it was somehow connected to our inside walls or something... or maybe I'm making excuses for him

 

[telectrix]

2 types.
1.dual RCD board so the circuitsa re split half on each RCD. downside is if the RCD trips, you lose half the curcuits. aveage cost installed £400.
2.All RCBO board. each circuit has it's own MCB/RCD combined so a fault will only disable the one circuit. average cost installed £550.

then there's options of Surge protection and arc fault detection both of which will escalate the cost/s.

 

[brianmoooore]

Thanks for this as when everyone was saying its well obvious I had no idea where to look. He said something like he has been doing it 20 years and never seen one go through a wall, I think he thought it was somehow connected to our inside walls or something... or maybe I'm making excuses for him

I've been 'doing it' for 50 years, and I've never seen one go through a wall, but it's right in the centre of his field of vision, and blindingly obvious as to what it must be.
The only other thing likely to be connected like that would be a large 'weed' producing facility.

 

[Guywithahouse]

2 types.
1.dual RCD board so the circuitsa re split half on each RCD. downside is if the RCD trips, you lose half the curcuits. aveage cost installed £400.
2.All RCBO board. each circuit has it's own MCB/RCD combined so a fault will only disable the one circuit. average cost installed £550.

then there's options of Surge protection and arc fault detection both of which will escalate the cost/s.

I paid £450, I guess its ok but not sure whether I've actually had work done which is verifiable and means jack all when I come to sell. We brought last year and there was no records of it electrics etc. So not sure if we'll be able to use this report thing hes left as proof.

 

[telectrix]

show a pic of the new board. with lid open.

 

[Guywithahouse]

 

[Guywithahouse]

show a pic of the new board. with lid open.

Not easy too right now, but I will later.

 

[telectrix]

there are some glaring errors on that certificate/report. e.g. max. permitted Zs 5.82 for all values of MCB WTF?
main switch 60898??? should be 60947-3
several more that I'm sure someone else will comment on.

 

[brianmoooore]

On the plus side, it does look like it was filled in using actual readings.