Young boy killed in pub garden

[Electrics]

Beer and food was my payment for the one foray ever into pub electrics that I mentioned earlier in the thread. The MCBs for the kitchen power circuits were showing extreme signs of distress through overheating, unused ways weren't blanked off, and the boards were at waist height in an unlocked cupboard on the public side of the bar. As far as records show, I was never there.
The stress of the first lockdown gave the then owner a nervous breakdown, it was put on the market and quickly sold to one of the managers, who then shut the place down completely until the beginning of December, using the time in between to completely refurbish the place, including the wiring, so hopefully all is well now.

Not being funny but reporting something like that prevents these sorts of things. You should have.

 

[brianmoooore]

I did report my concerns verbally to the landlord, and advised him to employ competent electricians to sort it out. I've always had more work lined up than I could ever possibly do, so I wasn't interested in taking it on.

 

[Electrics]

I did report my concerns verbally to the landlord, and advised him to employ competent electricians to sort it out. I've always had more work lined up than I could ever possibly do, so I wasn't interested in taking it on.

No i meant to HSE. If a workplace is literally a danger to human life you have a duty (legally and i would say morally) to report it. If the electrician in question on the article about the young boy had done the same instead of 'raising his eyebrows' and assuming the landlord would sort it in due time, the boy would still be alive.

 

[brianmoooore]

In a perfect world, yes, but this is my local I'm talking about, and there isn't another pub for 5 miles. I don't think the landlord would really appreciate the involvement of HSE.
In any case, I was never there for the breakdown.

 

[FatAlan]

I suppose that Pub Landlords in a tied pub are on full repairing leas's, will have to investigate the responsibility of the freeholder on safety issue's, but in this time when lots of Pubs are closing and there is no Landlord in residence the freeholder must become responsible for the installation?

Know where you’re coming from on that Mike. A lot of pub chains are renowned for screwing their tenants. They take their rent and commission but I bet all responsibility for building maintenance including costs is weighed on the tenant. Perhaps someone knows more detail? Been in a few locals in recent years and cringed at the wiring lash ups on display.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Surely they have to get an inspection done on change of Tenancy?

 

[Electrics]

In a perfect world, yes, but this is my local I'm talking about, and there isn't another pub for 5 miles. I don't think the landlord would really appreciate the involvement of HSE.
In any case, I was never there for the breakdown.

Pretty terrible line of reasoning to be honest.

This is from the article, very similar to what you're saying:

The barrister said that when Naylor was interviewed, he told police the state of the pub's fuse board "caused him to 'raise his eyebrows'."

"He accepted that, when shown it by Bearman, he had indeed thought that the fuse board area needed some attention, but that he had decided having spoken to Mr Bearman that he did not want to 'get involved in that side of it'," Mr Penny said.

You refusing to do your legal and moral duty because you can't get a pint within another 5 miles is terrible to be honest.

What if some kid had been killed?

Not to mention - you literally broke the law. You were obliged under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to report it to the HSE. That law is there specifically to stop people like the kid in the article from being injured or killed because of some a***hole who can't be bothered making his place of work safe. The fact you overlooked it is absolutely shocking to be honest mate. Poor show.

 

[Vortigern]

broke the law. You were obliged under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974

What makes you say that @CamoElectric ? What specific law would be broken by @brianmoooore. If you are doing an EICR say, and you spot a C1 (in a pub) who must you report it to? I think the onus legally is on the person responsible for health and safety the LL, to include the electrical safety. Normally a C1 is brought to the attention of the person ordering the work. If they then say ok fine I will deal with it what do you do? Spy on them to see if they have complied, and if they did not off to HSE?

 

[Electrics]

What makes you say that @CamoElectric ? What specific law would be broken by @brianmoooore. If you are doing an EICR say, and you spot a C1 (in a pub) who must you report it to? I think the onus legally is on the person responsible for health and safety the LL, to include the electrical safety. Normally a C1 is brought to the attention of the person ordering the work. If they then say ok fine I will deal with it what do you do? Spy on them to see if they have complied, and if they did not off to HSE?

Anybody entering the premises in any sort of work capacity is responsible for health and safety. Everybody at a work place, both employee, employer, contractor, visitors (which that guy would be classed as, whilst providing a quote or advice etc) has a duty to themselves and everyone else in the workplace to follow the regs as laid down in HASAWA. Under that act you have a legal duty to report something that is a danger to human life.

Plain and simple, if someone died and someone can prove brianmooooore was there as an expert, saw dangerous electrics and didn't report it, he's up for manslaughter like the man in the news article. As proven by the article 'i thought it best not to get involved as my next nearest boozer is 5 miles away' isn't a valid excuse and you would still see yourself in court on charges. That's not to mention the moral failure - what if someone's kid stuck their hand in that and you didn't report them? I know i'd feel guilty, but then i have children myself and a conscience.

I only know all this because i finished a health and safety BTEC literally on Friday.

 

[loz2754]

You or I, as a contractor would have a duty to report a dangerous observation yes. But only to the person responsible, or duty holder. Not directly to the HSE. Preferably in writing.
Having said that, there is nothing to stop any individual reporting a dangerous observation directly to the HSE if they felt it their moral duty to do so.

 

[pc1966]

Your contractual duty is to report it (and in writing) to the person who engaged you to do the work.
Your moral duty is to report to HSE if you genuinely believe an immediate danger will be ignored by them.

 

[Electrics]

Your contractual duty is to report it (and in writing) to the person who engaged you to do the work.
Your moral duty is to report to HSE if you genuinely believe an immediate danger will be ignored by them.

Not true, this is nothing to do with contract law. Your contract with the landlord under electrical regs are a separate thing.

Although not explicitly stated in the HASAWA regs, you have a duty to report it to the HSE as a dangerous occurrence.

If you know, for example, that light fittings in a pub are live, you cannot just report to the landlord who you suspect will not get it fixed and go on your merry way. If you don't report it and someone gets hurt you WILL end up in the dock alongside them.

This is dynamic, it's not a fixed black or white thing.

If brianmoooore's pub hurt or killed someone and it could be proven that he'd seen it and figured he'd do nothing because the hassle of finding another hole to have a few scoops in was too much, he'd face criminal charges. Look at how the news article references almost the exact same sentiments expressed by the guy on trial who ignored what he saw.

In a private household, it's one of those 'can't do anything' cases - you can't report someone in their own house and if they get hurt it's their problem. But in a public place you are being negligent if you don't report it - not reporting it because you didn't want the hassle from the landlord proves that you knew he would likely ignore it anyway which compounds the negligence. A landlord willing to rectify the problem would have no problem with letting you put it straight there and then pending further works.

To just walk away and do nothing as 'not your problem' is a scumbag move if it's a public place.

 

[loz2754]

Even an employee in a company is only legally required to report a dangerous situation through the chain of command, ie to their immediate supervisor.

 

[Electrics]

Even an employee in a company is only legally required to report a dangerous situation through the chain of command, ie to their immediate supervisor.

Not true, under the RIDDOR regulations you have a duty as an employee to report 'dangerous occurrences' which can include potential electrical discharging creating a hazardous situation - EDIT, sorry you're right, i thought you meant reporting it to someone else - under RIDDOR all employees have to report it to the person in charge. Only 'responsible people' should make the actual report to the authorities.

Members of the public are of course not legally bound by the letter of the law, but as i said previously, when it comes to the crunch it wouldn't matter, you would be deemed negligent and tried along with the workplace. Either way if you go on work business to inspect something that you are sure is an immediate but not obvious danger to the public you will get done if it comes on top and you said nothing. It would be like knowing that a kids bouncy castle was built on quicksand but saying nothing because it's not your business, and then unsuspecting kids bouncing on it sink and die. You won't get away with it, there are a whole raft of laws covering moral negligence etc.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It was tested in Court about six years ago if the Health and Safety at work Act applied to volunteer workers i.e. those acting without pay, the Courts deemed that even though they where not paid employees they where still at work and the Act therefore still applied, but what this did make clear was that if you where a customer at a restaurant or public house the Act did not apply to you as you where not at work.

 

[brianmoooore]

I was not at the pub in any professional capacity, nor had been asked to attend by anyone with authority to do so. I was there as a member of the public who happened to have expert knowledge relevant to the current situation.
I sorted the immediate live to earth problem, did something about the 460 volts to the emergency lighting circuit by moving the feed from the breaker on the opposite phase to the breaker feeding them on the other phase, so that they were all on the same supply, and filled the gaps in the front of the board with a couple of burnt out breakers (kitchen feeds that had given up the unequal struggle), before leaving them to catch up on their delayed lunches.
If anyone should be villified, it's the outfit that had replaced the lights a few weeks before, presumably issuing a MWC, and were responsible for the EICRs every three (?) years.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Unfortunately Brian as soon as you touched the installation you took on responsibility and the Health and Safety at Work Act applied to you, even if you where not paid or there on the authority of the LL, this again has been tested in Court where a Doctor stopped at a road accident to help and was held responsible for the treatment of the victim who died.

 

[brianmoooore]

this again has been tested in Court where a Doctor stopped at a road accident to help and was held responsible for the treatment of the victim who died.

In the UK? This wouldn't be a surprise in the US, but if this nonsense has reached the UK it needs pushing back against pronto.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Yes in the UK and about twenty years ago, as soon as a professional uses their expertise to remedy or help in any situation they become responsible for its outcome, sad fact, but that is how it is.

 

[FatAlan]

Surely they have to get an inspection done on change of Tenancy?

You would like to think so? I wonder if new tenants have solicitors involved to read the small print before they sign up?