Not to mention - you literally broke the law. You were obliged under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to report it to the HSE. That law is there specifically to stop people like the kid in the article from being injured or killed because of some a***hole who can't be bothered making his place of work safe. The fact you overlooked it is absolutely shocking to be honest mate. Poor show.
I'll take section, chapter and paragraph for 10 please Bob.
Anybody entering the premises in any sort of work capacity is responsible for health and safety. Everybody at a work place, both employee, employer, contractor, visitors (which that guy would be classed as, whilst providing a quote or advice etc) has a duty to themselves and everyone else in the workplace to follow the regs as laid down in HASAWA. Under that act you have a legal duty to report something that is a danger to human life
Again, I'll take chapter and paragraph for 10 please.
Plain and simple, if someone died and someone can prove brianmooooore was there as an expert, saw dangerous electrics and didn't report it, he's up for manslaughter like the man in the news article.
Care to provide a case study to prove this? You would only become liable If YOU intervened, not because some KJ knows you're a spark and saw you do nothing.
I only know all this because i finished a health and safety BTEC literally on Friday.
You realise that doesn't make you an expert right?
Although not explicitly stated in the HASAWA regs, you have a duty to report it to the HSE as a dangerous occurrence.
Incorrect, Schedule 2 lists the types of dangerous occurences under RIDDOR; shitty electrics isnt one of them. I would have thought your BTEC would have covered RIDDOR.
The list of dangerous occurrences in Schedule 2 of RIDDOR is designed to obtain information primarily about incidents with a high potential to cause death or serious injury, but which happen relatively infrequently.
www.hse.gov.uk
If you know, for example, that light fittings in a pub are live, you cannot just report to the landlord who you suspect will not get it fixed and go on your merry way. If you don't report it and someone gets hurt you WILL end up in the dock alongside them.
This is dynamic, it's not a fixed black or white thing.
As the law currently stands you can do exactly that. If you are attending as a job you notice unsafe work (outside the scope of any agreed works), the only thing you can do is to issue a Danger Notification (if the client will not allow you to rectify the issue immediately), under EAWR Regulations 3 (Duties upon a person) [HASAWA 4(2), 4(3).] and 29 (Defence), you are deemed to have discharged your duty of care, if the LL won't authorise remedial work then you cover your arse with a Danger Notification because that is all you can do. What you can not do is isolate the circuit until it is resolved, we simply do not have that authority - some believe we should. It's a shitty situation but thats the regulations as they currently stand.
HASAWA 3(2) points at the electricians actions not having a negetive effect on the H&S of others while work is undertaken - That's about as far as you get to reporting. HASAWA 25(1) gives inspectors the power to act in an appropriate way to immediately remove causes of immenient danger, unfortunately this doesnt extend to us as sparkies so, as above, we cant just isolate until such a time as the issue is resolved.
HASAWA 42(1) gives courts powers to force remdial action to be taken but an offence must be committed first, so we couldn't just take someone to court for having dodgy electrics
HASAWA (40) offers the accused to offer a defence against any regulation that is not absolute, such as those containing "so far as is reasonably practicable".
If brianmoooore's pub hurt or killed someone and it could be proven that he'd seen it and figured he'd do nothing because the hassle of finding another hole to have a few scoops in was too much, he'd face criminal charges. Look at how the news article references almost the exact same sentiments expressed by the guy on trial who ignored what he saw.
In terms of our off-the-clock spark that has been dragged into this because someone knew he was a spark and accuses him of doing nothing then as part of thier Reg 29 defence they can use HASAWA 3(2) - As i doubt they'd have sufficient kit with them in any case to discharge that duty, 25(1) not giving them the authority to just lock off, or render safe, the installation, and so all they could do is, at best, a danger notification or some form of communication with a trial (email/text), advising someone needs to look at it
In a private household, it's one of those 'can't do anything' cases - you can't report someone in their own house and if they get hurt it's their problem. But in a public place you are being negligent if you don't report it - not reporting it because you didn't want the hassle from the landlord proves that you knew he would likely ignore it anyway which compounds the negligence. A decent landlord willing to rectify the problem would have no problem with letting you put it straight there and then pending further works.
To just walk away and do nothing as 'not your problem' is a scumbag move if it's a public place.
I would like to think any of my fellow members on here, if they saw something dangerous (and were not equipped or authorised to rectify/render safe the issue, they would at least, in some fashion, notify someone about it.
Not true, under the RIDDOR regulations you have a duty as an employee to report 'dangerous occurrences' which can include potential electrical discharging creating a hazardous situation - EDIT, sorry you're right, i thought you meant reporting it to someone else - under RIDDOR all employees have to report it to the person in charge. Only 'responsible people' should make the actual report to the authorities.
Members of the public are of course not legally bound by the letter of the law, but as i said previously, when it comes to the crunch it wouldn't matter, you would be deemed negligent and tried along with the workplace. Either way if you go on work business to inspect something that you are sure is an immediate but not obvious danger to the public you will get done if it comes on top and you said nothing.
EAWR Regulation 29 would say otherwise
It would be like knowing that a kids bouncy castle was built on quicksand but saying nothing because it's not your business, and then unsuspecting kids bouncing on it sink and die. You won't get away with it, there are a whole raft of laws covering moral negligence etc.
You're not comparing apples with apples here so not a fair comparision.
In the UK? This wouldn't be a surprise in the US, but if this nonsense has reached the UK it needs pushing back against pronto.
Yes in the UK and about twenty years ago, as soon as a professional uses their expertise to remedy or help in any situation they become responsible for its outcome, sad fact, but that is how it is.
Medical professionals are held to different obligations and standards to electricians so again, we're not comparing apples and apples here. Good Samaritain clauses protect joe public from prosecution when adminstering first aid, there would be similar protection for medical professionals that were "caught short" so to speak, so long as they can prove they did the "minimum" required (calling 999 and getting better equipped professionals in) then it would be hard to prosecute.
So if it is 6 p.m. and you attend and tell the person responsible (in a pub) the lights are live and the LL says don't worry, what then? You can't phone HSE so you would be responsible if you did not disconnect the circuit then?
When you attended your course what particular sections of the act did they cite as authority for that statement, i.e. you are responsible if you don't tell HSE, what if HSE don't act in a timely manner and the poor unfortunate person gets the shock who is responsible there.
I'm guessing not a lot, Hell I've not done a H&S course, but i do have copies of HASAWA, EAWR & RIDDOR to hand, not because I'm a smart-arse but because i want to know and give educated information to clients and the like.
As far as I know if I find a C1 I stop work and inform the person ordering the work with a view to remedy it immediately. So I would have to say to the client, well if you don't do it I am phoning up HSE now and reporting you? Really? Surely my responsibility is to flag up danger and then it is the decision of the person ordering the work as to what happens next if they do the wrong thing despite my recommendations HSE?
Our legal obligation unfortunately ends once the "duty of care" has been discharged (be that issuing certificates for completed minor works, certificates for EICRs and completed remedials and of course, Danger Notifications in light of any C1s that we aren't immediately able to fix - Typical example would be anything involving DNO equipment - We have no authority to work on it, we have the competency and technical knowledge to effectively report it to the DNO and advise the client accordingly and so we discharge our duty of care using the channels and tools avaliable.
If it went to court for say, a DNO head causing a fire then we can prove a Danger notification was issued, we can prove a contact was made to DNO (because we always demand a reference number from the DNO) and we can prove our advise to clients; because we follow up with emails etc.
I didn't state that people were scumbags, i stated that certain actions were. Important distinction - i've attacked an action not a person. The same as you can attack an argument and not the person making it.
You report, i believe, the business to the local council as a member of the public. As a member of the workforce (whether self-employed, paid or not, etc) you should report it to the responsible person but also to the HSE if you think nothing will be done. Reporting actual accidents or near misses should be done by the responsible person.
If you did neither of these and someone dies as a result of things you knew but said nothing about, you are responsible under a raft of different laws too numerous to mention which have nothing to do with health and safety laws.
Either way, the moral duty is to ensure it gets sorted or at the very least let patrons know to not go in there because it's a death trap. Doing nothing is reprehensible imo.
Going here covers anyone who has expert opinion that the premises is unsafe but can't enforce a change:
Contact HSE - Reporting a health and safety issue - https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/concerns.htm
Someone dies and they prove you were there, you have to explain why you did nothing. It's that simple.
Just ask yourself how you'd feel if someone off this board went into a pub and did absolutely nothing because the inconvenience of not being able to have a pint for a few weeks was too much to bear, and then your kid went in there, put his hand in the bar-side consumer unit with poor earthing and died. You wouldn't blame the person at all because it's technically not his problem? Come off it. He's responsible.
My personal standpoint on this, and I've said as much on other platforms is that when we are dealing with commerical or industrial workplaces (licensed premises essentially) then i would, on concluding any work where a C1 code may become apparent, notifiy the client in the first instance and, because i wouldn't alway trust the client to rectify it in the timely manner, make a call to the local HESO and advise them there was a business with C1 conditions and that while I'm sure they will have it fixed in the required timeframe, it may be beneficial to the HESO to conduct an inspection as part of thier licensing duties.
I've discharged my duty of care by notifiying the client, I have taken reasonably practicable measures by notifying HESO of a potentially unsafe property.environment - The ball is now in the court between the client/business and the HESO. I can sleep at night knowing I've done everything i can and, because Ive notifed a neutral party, can't be accused of finding issues where there are none and being "profiteering".
Thats my take.
