S
SRE
I love Luciana Berger!
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pcollins
Not much else we can do.
I maintain (and I know I'm preaching to the converted) that it could still go at a lower rate, but convincing people is the real challenge.
TLC = Total Loss of Confidence
I maintain (and I know I'm preaching to the converted) that it could still go at a lower rate, but convincing people is the real challenge.
TLC = Total Loss of Confidence
S
SRE
If it was planned and deliberate why didn't they tell us earlier!
are we the first to get this on our website? 
F
FIT-PV
Any news about commercial rates?
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pcollins
Well he's evidently going to tell us how much we should be selling for. If so presumably he can tell us which corners we can cut as well.
As an aside I notice OFGEM haven't yet halved their notification fee (sad I know, but no less pithy than the point scoring now going on on telly)
As an aside I notice OFGEM haven't yet halved their notification fee (sad I know, but no less pithy than the point scoring now going on on telly)
Hear Hear...
I think that's more down to compensating for the increase to the export rate.
The combined impact of the 16p FIT rate, 4.5p export rate is better than 16.5p FIT + 3.2p export. The reduction to 20 year payback period obviously makes that worse over the lifetime, but tbh I really don't see this aspect being too bad, and we've had a fair few older customer put off by the 25 year payback period, so there could even be some benefits from this.
dansk
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Thats the Yorkshire spirit we like to see ;-)
Sounds to me like clutching at straws desperately trying to find a glimmer of good news.
The benefit's very marginal. The export rate effectively has to be halved to account for the 50% deemed export, doesn't it? So the true figures are:
New: 16p + 2.25p = 18.25p
Old: 16.5p + 1.6p = 18.1p
The customer will barely notice the difference but reducing the duration from 25 years to 20 will typically cost maybe 500-700 per year in today's money for years 21-25.
P
PVKitsDirect
I'll have to do some number crunching. It may be worthwhile going over the 4kW install size so as to be able to make greater savings in the home for people who use it during the day.
I'll be back...
I'll be back...
S
SRE
Our solar future are quoting 16p for 20 years is equivalent to 13.5p for 25 years.
Every day I pass an installation that doesn't have a roof kit - yes I did say doesn't have a roof kit!! Well that's a good few hundred quid of the installation costs, I'll forget the structural assessment, that's a few more quid, we're in training with ropes and hooks to see if we can dangle from them to get rid of the cost of the scaffolding - any more suggestions for Barking cost cuts?????
Every day I pass an installation that doesn't have a roof kit - yes I did say doesn't have a roof kit!! Well that's a good few hundred quid of the installation costs, I'll forget the structural assessment, that's a few more quid, we're in training with ropes and hooks to see if we can dangle from them to get rid of the cost of the scaffolding - any more suggestions for Barking cost cuts?????
S
SRE
Me - again! We've got 2000 to get out this weekend. At least the weather is decent.
P
PVKitsDirect
The inverter cost is the one we need to drive down most. 250W mono panels can now be bought for £--- and that will surely drop. Inverters have stayed pretty much the same.
Costs removed by PV Kits Direct
Costs removed by PV Kits Direct
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I'm not particularly posting good or bad news, just trying to give an accurate picture of the situation, which is that for the 1st 20 years of the installation the return will actually be slightly higher than if they'd used the 16.5p FIT + 3.2p export rates - it's certainly not worse than expected, which many might think at first glance.
I honestly don't see this being a significant issue for most of our customers. For most it's the initial rate of return and payback time that are most important IME, with a lot of comments along the lines of 'I doubt I'll live that long' etc when it comes to the total 25 year figures.
I may be wrong, but I do see this reduction to 20 year FITs as being the least worst option when it comes to controlling the total costs of the FIT scheme, and it puts PV in line with most other technologies.
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J
JulianC
Time to buy myself a stetson :cowboy: and some big scissors, for all those corners I'm going to have to cut to win the race to the bottom. Screw REAL, screw structural surveys, screw insurance backed warranties, screw insurance - it's all dead money. Buy cheap far-eastern tat and throw it in quickly. Sell the Stihl 'cos we won't be notching tiles anymore - takes too long. Different roof aspects? Tough, you're getting a single MPP tracker like it or not. Discount for cash? - no problem mate. You ain't seen me right. Slate roof? No problem sir, I have just the hanger bolt for that. Except it won't happen. Damn my moral standards.
And so it begins, boom and bust on 3 monthly cycles - for the first few months at least, until the customers run out as the gap between PV and ISA shrinks. Rising fuel costs won't make the slightest bit of difference to the majority I fear. The only incentive to buy PV now will be because it will be a bit sh***er if you buy it next month. And if people didn't buy at 43p and aren't buying at 21p I'm not so sure they'll be beating down the doors at 16p.
Local rag dropped through the door this morning and now even the local furniture superstore is advertising PV. Sod it, I'm better than this, I'm off to hand my CV in at Maccy D's. Solar PV UK died last year.
And so it begins, boom and bust on 3 monthly cycles - for the first few months at least, until the customers run out as the gap between PV and ISA shrinks. Rising fuel costs won't make the slightest bit of difference to the majority I fear. The only incentive to buy PV now will be because it will be a bit sh***er if you buy it next month. And if people didn't buy at 43p and aren't buying at 21p I'm not so sure they'll be beating down the doors at 16p.
Local rag dropped through the door this morning and now even the local furniture superstore is advertising PV. Sod it, I'm better than this, I'm off to hand my CV in at Maccy D's. Solar PV UK died last year.
B
babba
O what a load of Feed-in Tariff Update - Latest DECC News
I'm not liking the timing of that winter cuts schedule. We're going to have a rush at the peak of winter at the end of January.
Working to DECC's convenient schedule instead of any sort of schedule that matches up with this being an industry that's hugely dependent on the weather.
P
PVKitsDirect
At the new rate a £XXXX 4kW install can pay back in 6.14 years, so not too bad.
I'm trying to be optimistic, but feel free to shoot me down.
Costs removed by PV Kits Direct
I'm trying to be optimistic, but feel free to shoot me down.
Costs removed by PV Kits Direct
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Gotta love your optimism Gavin:joker:
S
SRE
I don't have a stetson yet so I can't install at those rates!
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Its not ideal, but workable. At a domestic level 100MW means 10-11,000 installs a month without digression. April saw only 17MW of installations. What is not clear is what period a November 2012 digression is based on. It will be a little unfair if it is based on any rush in June/July before the new scheme comes in and people are racing for a deadline at 21p/25 years.
Things look better in the 10-50k size where the rate of return is higher.
On the subject of inverters, I have been offered a Tiwanese 4k transformerless inverter for under £600.00. However I won't be fitting it as there is no built in monitoring and there are increased BOS costs. There is also install time V's purchase cost issue. Would rather pay substantially more for a unit that has everything built in and offers added value to the customer.
Things look better in the 10-50k size where the rate of return is higher.
On the subject of inverters, I have been offered a Tiwanese 4k transformerless inverter for under £600.00. However I won't be fitting it as there is no built in monitoring and there are increased BOS costs. There is also install time V's purchase cost issue. Would rather pay substantially more for a unit that has everything built in and offers added value to the customer.
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S
SRE
If you realy think about it - there's likely to be a rush now until end of July = cut in November. Still plenty of summer to get jobs in August, September and possibly even October = cut in February, which won't take into account that cliff edge drop off in Nov. Kick starting the industry in March/April next year is going to be very, very tricky!
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PVKitsDirect
We think that by the time this cut comes in, you will be able to buy a 4kW kit from us for £XXXX (that is our aim) and with a £XXXX install, the client can get a payback of 6 years dead.
Back to inverters, I went to a trade show in China last week and found what looks to be a good 4kW, dual tracker inverter that will sell to trade for under £---. It's G83 approved, but is not yet in PV*Sol for comparison purposes, but will be soon.
Costs removed by PV Kits Direct
Back to inverters, I went to a trade show in China last week and found what looks to be a good 4kW, dual tracker inverter that will sell to trade for under £---. It's G83 approved, but is not yet in PV*Sol for comparison purposes, but will be soon.
Costs removed by PV Kits Direct
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T
TedM
Is there just a little hint of irony that the DECC press release is titled : "Certainty for Solar"?
S
SRE
and my Stetson requirement still stands.
My customers can come and knock on my door any time of the day or night. As a small installer it's impossible to work on a stack em high sell em cheap business model. Employees don't have the same vested interest in making sure the job is A1 as the installation without roof kit round the corner from me is testament to. No doubt the customer thinks they have a very neat installation!
It also doesn't help us (and I do recognise that you're trying to help
) when you advertise cost prices on a public forum. My customers don't have a clue what my overheads are, kit prices are just the start.Cutting corners, promoting unsustainable prices just encourages Barking to think installation costs are too high. I wish, I wish, I wish I could work a normal 40 - 50 hour week. If my costs were based on the hours I work I'd be loads more expensive instead of working for minimum wage.
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PVKitsDirect
Sorry - I'll go back and edit the costs out.
Just trying to stay positive - not by promoting lower working standards, by driving kit costs down; which, believe me, we are doing.
Just trying to stay positive - not by promoting lower working standards, by driving kit costs down; which, believe me, we are doing.
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tbf, in January more than 2 a week would be a rush.
Point is though, there's bound to be some level of people wanting to get in before the cut, and it's incredibly hard at that time of year to know how many jobs you actually can guarantee to complete. If the weather turns, which it's very likely to, then lots of companies could end up pretty screwed - conversely if it doesn't, then those that too high levels of risk with their installation rates could end up pushing the rest of the industry in to a higher degression rate next time around, while it'd only be them that really benefitted from the higher install rates.
DECC really shouldn't be encouraging this sort of thing at that time of year. If the weather does turn, I wouldn't be surprised to find installers dying while being pushed to meet targets in the snow and ice.
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scottliv
Is the new export tariff of 4.5p for all installations retrospectively or only from 1/8/12. It is not clear in the DECC statement.
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pcollins
No surprise there then! Nothing ever is with them!
I think it is for new installs from 01/08
new installs after 1st August only, though I forget where I read that.
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langstroth2
I know I've said this before, I remain convinced, this is typical central gov civil servant incompetence rather than anything approximating to a plan or strategy. They can think they mean well, but just don't live in any real world commercial reality; and ministers will do what they are advised by said same civil servants. The culture of the majority of gov depts is of self obsessed naval gazing; I'm sure DECC is no different. Sorry doesn't help with managing the impact of all this I know.
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