Shower in a shop! Do zone regs apply?

S

sparkenter

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We've just been asked to install a shower to a back room in a shop to wash dogs...
It's a pooche parlour!
The room has 3 double sockets one located about a foot from the doggy bath/ shower area.
All circuits are RCD protected and we're gonna blank off the closest socket.

Not sure on the regulations regarding the other 2 as they are only 6 feet max away from the bath.

Do we class it as a bathroom??
 
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Sticking a blanking plate on nearest socket may not be sufficient unless you can ensure its IP65 rating long term, you would be wiser to un-install the socket point. For the rest its all in reg's as Scots has kindly highlighted (Zoning) im not understanding why you havent refered to the Zoning diagrams as they are easy and clear to follow.
I would also detail the customer regarding using electrical appliance within the vicinity of the bath/shower area, i see a situe where water is drained and dog is dried off with hand-held dryer while still stood in bath, if dryer can reach to do this their is always the chance it could fall into full bath when not in use but still plugged in, with this in mind it may serve to remove all sockets from the room to avoid this risky set-up.... give the owner the reasons why and if they then feel the need to use an extension and ignore your concerns then its not your issue anymore as you have done what you felt necessary.
 
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scotsparky said:
+This a serious question?

Section 701 is for all areas containing a shower or bath not just "bathrooms" you have to comply completly with 701.1
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How do you suppose hairdressing salons manage with their showers for washing hair being within 3m of hairdryer sockets?
That was a serious question btw.

I think a slight deviation could be required - OK it's a location containing a bath/shower but it is unlikely the person (or in this case dog) will be getting out of the bath and touching electrical equipment. On the other hand dogs are renowned for trying to 'spin dry' them selves with little disregard for where the excess water ends up.

As mentioned simply blanking off a socket which is too close is unlikely to give adequate protection; in this instance I wouldn't necessarily follow the regs to the letter but 'take into consideration' external factors such as how the room will be used, for example placing the sockets higher up than normal, using outdoor type sockets or maybe commando type sockets. Possibly even look into using 110v equipment or going via an isolating transformer.

Remember I haven't seen the setup, but those are a few things to consider - you're the one putting his name to the job.
 
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This is the dilemma we have, if we remove all sockets a trailing lead will be used to bring in drying equipment from outside of the 3m zone.

Obviously the local socket will be blanked in a suitable enclosure and the other sockets are at least 1 m above the floor and will be of suitable ip rating.

110v equipment is out of the question due to the size of the shop and cost constraints.

Funilly enough we have just 1st fixed a hair dressing salon that requires a shower to wash hair in the bowl with the driers and drying machines well within 3m. So Scottsparky, would this shop also have to be wired within the guidlines of section 701?
 
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You expressed it was a back room with bath/shower for washing dogs... therefore it still falls under 701 and should be altered to suit, the senerio of the hairdressers is a seperate discussion in itself and not your senerio, if you inform the customer of the dangers and remove the sockets that dont comply then you can sign off the work as in compliance, if they choose to do the extention thing it really isn't your concern anymore... if you find yourself contrevening the regs then this is ok as long as you show good reason and document it and ost important is that it dosn't compromise the installation health or safety wise.
 
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Regarding the hairdresser situe' .... this still has to follow 701' but careful design of the installation including sink positions etc means issues shouldn't arise, if all chairs have a dedicated sink in front then sockets wont usually be permitted if they have a tapfed or electric hand held shower, the way around this is to either have the sinks remote to the cutting area or if not possible then have power poles just to the left or right of where the hairdresser will stand, all electrics can be hung from the power pole as well as plugged in and this also allows you to digress from the regs as its highly unlikely that the hairdresser will turn the jet onto the powerpole, if water jets thus spray forwards or accidently get aimed at the work top there are no electric points or items to get soaked.

To note! in the power pole senerio you will probably find it still dosn't comply with Zoning but due to the nature of the person using the shower been trained and rcd coverage on poles it can be said to be acceptable but will need to be noted as a departure from the regs.
 
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darkwood said:
Regarding the hairdresser situe' .... this still has to follow 701' but careful design of the installation including sink positions etc means issues shouldn't arise, if all chairs have a dedicated sink in front then sockets wont usually be permitted if they have a tapfed or electric hand held shower, the way around this is to either have the sinks remote to the cutting area or if not possible then have power poles just to the left or right of where the hairdresser will stand, all electrics can be hung from the power pole as well as plugged in and this also allows you to digress from the regs as its highly unlikely that the hairdresser will turn the jet onto the powerpole, if water jets thus spray forwards or accidently get aimed at the work top there are no electric points or items to get soaked.

To note! in the power pole senerio you will probably find it still dosn't comply with Zoning but due to the nature of the person using the shower been trained and rcd coverage on poles it can be said to be acceptable but will need to be noted as a departure from the regs.
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There must be thousands and thousands of deaths in hair salons! I will make sure my wife checks out distances of sockets etc next time she goes! Lol.
 
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sparkenter said:
We've just been asked to install a shower to a back room in a shop to wash dogs...
It's a pooche parlour!
The room has 3 double sockets one located about a foot from the doggy bath/ shower area.
All circuits are RCD protected and we're gonna blank off the closest socket.

Not sure on the regulations regarding the other 2 as they are only 6 feet max away from the bath.

Do we class it as a bathroom??
Click to expand...

SIMPLY YES treat it as though they are bathing with the pouches
 
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Really, so if i have a Shower over the sink in my bathroom for hairwashing only i can have a socket next to it to dry my hair?

Is there any distiction then between the user of electrical equipment being the dry one as in the hair salon and a dry user in the pooche parlour (obviously the wet pooche is unlikely to operate any portable appliances)?
 
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My way of thinking about this subject

Do we agree
The whole idea of a a shower room as a special location is because bodies are likely to be unclothed and the person bare foot and the possibility of severe electric shock through the whole of the body
The hairdressers situation will likely not have a person vulnerable in that way

The shower unit, used for washing hair of a clothed person is no more likely to introduce danger over and above a hand washing unit in a toilet or an electric boiler in a kitchen

However,a room containing a shower is a special location and all the rules of the special location apply,without exception
Having said that,the multitude of hairdressing and dog washing premises where these rules would make them unusable, suggest to me that the problem lies in the description of the room

A shower, where a person is going to strip off and become immersed in water should be described as such
A shower unit where its in the local hairdressers and without a bath or basin to stand in,is not a shower room
Its simply a room with an electric heater and general rules would apply

At least thats my trail of thought :smiley2:
 
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Top Cat said:
There must be thousands and thousands of deaths in hair salons! I will make sure my wife checks out distances of sockets etc next time she goes! Lol.
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Never said in the real world it don't get ignored frequently and yes its a rare issue that death will occur, but in the extreme event it does you will have to justify your departure from the reg's or face the consequences, yes i see the argument that is so rare its not worth applying 701' but in a court of law my design would see me walk out of court Not Guilty as oppose to having socket and electrical appliance in direct line of shower head if it went astray by 20degrees....ive designed electrics for similar to said situe with clark of works allowing my departure for power poles but he was against the worktop sockets.... Regs apply in all circumstances unless you can justify otherwise, preaching 'never heard anyone getting killed' in court wont help your case if you are in that position. Statistics wont give you a good defense.
 
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Move the sockets away from possible danger to persons or live stock (not actually live stock, its a domestic animal) to the best of your design abilities or the bgb will be slapped around your head in court.

That's my 2p worth.
 
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Sorry to hijack but I've got to carry out an EICR on a hairdressers next week and am very interested in all the points raised. In my HD the hairwashing area is seperate to the cutting drying area thank god but the till/reception socket is at floor level about 2m from one of the showers. The till etc about 1.5m. Codes? I also very much doubt the showers are RCD protected.
I'm more worried (as I am with all hairdressers) that it's a single phase supply with 5 8.5Kw Showers connected but it's been fine for 20 years..........

I suppose as far as an EICR is concerned I've got to apply 701 to the letter as it's 'a location with a bath or shower'

Thanks for your thoughts chaps.
 
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I'm assuming that the shower is basically a sink with a hose attached? A lot of kitchens now have sinks with detachable tap nozzles for rinsing plates and cleaning the sink itself. How does this differ from a sink which you can stand a pooch in to rinse it off? Exactly the same as the hairdressers where you hold your head under a spray hose for rinsing....
 
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I think everyone needs to look at Des's post re hairdressing salons.

As for the dog bath, i think common sense applies.

Sockets need to be at least 3m from the shower.

As for the extension lead, we could say that about any domestic installation.

All IMHO.
 
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Des 56 said:
My way of thinking about this subject

Do we agree
The whole idea of a a shower room as a special location is because bodies are likely to be unclothed and the person bare foot and the possibility of severe electric shock through the whole of the body
The hairdressers situation will likely not have a person vulnerable in that way

The shower unit, used for washing hair of a clothed person is no more likely to introduce danger over and above a hand washing unit in a toilet or an electric boiler in a kitchen

However,a room containing a shower is a special location and all the rules of the special location apply,without exception
Having said that,the multitude of hairdressing and dog washing premises where these rules would make them unusable, suggest to me that the problem lies in the description of the room

A shower, where a person is going to strip off and become immersed in water should be described as such
A shower unit where its in the local hairdressers and without a bath or basin to stand in,is not a shower room
Its simply a room with an electric heater and general rules would apply

At least thats my trail of thought :smiley2:
Click to expand...
... So are you saying a shower in a hairdressers' wouldn't be classed as a shower (for the purposes of the regs) because it doesn't have a shower tray and isn't a wet room?
 
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JASON said:
I think everyone needs to look at Des's post re hairdressing salons.

As for the dog bath, i think common sense applies.

Sockets need to be at least 3m from the shower.

As for the extension lead, we could say that about any domestic installation.

All IMHO.
Click to expand...

I don't think it would stand up in court!!
 
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Des 56 said:
My way of thinking about this subject

Do we agree
The whole idea of a a shower room as a special location is because bodies are likely to be unclothed and the person bare foot and the possibility of severe electric shock through the whole of the body
The hairdressers situation will likely not have a person vulnerable in that way

The shower unit, used for washing hair of a clothed person is no more likely to introduce danger over and above a hand washing unit in a toilet or an electric boiler in a kitchen

However,a room containing a shower is a special location and all the rules of the special location apply,without exception
Having said that,the multitude of hairdressing and dog washing premises where these rules would make them unusable, suggest to me that the problem lies in the description of the room

A shower, where a person is going to strip off and become immersed in water should be described as such
A shower unit where its in the local hairdressers and without a bath or basin to stand in,is not a shower room
Its simply a room with an electric heater and general rules would apply

At least thats my trail of thought :smiley2:
Click to expand...

Des you are talking common sense, that will never do on this forum! Lol
 
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Adam W said:
... So are you saying a shower in a hairdressers' wouldn't be classed as a shower (for the purposes of the regs) because it doesn't have a shower tray and isn't a wet room?
Click to expand...

No, not completely, he's saying that there will not be a situation, where anyone is going to be totally unclothed, and/or bare footed in a wet environment.

Which i fully agree with!! That's not to say commonsense should be ----ed out of the window, as far as positioning of socket outlets...
 
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Engineer54 said:
No, not completely, he's saying that there will not be a situation, where anyone is going to be totally unclothed, and/or bare footed in a wet environment.

Which i fully agree with!! That's not to say commonsense should be ----ed out of the window, as far as positioning of socket outlets...
Click to expand...
... Whereas in a dog grooming parlour there would be a wet, 'naked' dog in the shower?

I would imagine this dog grooming parlour are going to use a hairdryer in the dog showering area regardless of what anyone says - as mentioned they will just run an extension lead into there if you won't come up with a more convenient solution. I know the same could be said about a domestic bathroom but washing and drying dogs is the sole purpose of this room so you can be certain that that's what someone is going to do.

I don't think saying that the customer 'can't have a socket within 3m' is going to be an acceptable solution, hence why earlier I was suggesting alternatives such as an isolating transformer.
I'm sure there other options available, such as using a SELV hairdryer fed by a 12/24v socket nearby, or piping in high pressure hot air from outside the zones.
I read somewhere about a 'hands-free body dryer' where you just step out of the shower and stand in a high pressure blast of air which dries your body without the need for a towel, although I seem to remember they weren't cheap.
 
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I'm all for common sense but when the CPS has got to lynch someone for a disaster the common sense approach won't wash (no pun intended) lol
Click to expand...


So what are you suggesting that all hairdressing saloons be classed as special locations??

As for a pooch parlour the OP has stated that the closest outlet is going to be blanked off.
6 feet distance is more than adequate in this situation, hell on the continent, it's common practice to have an RCD protected socket outlet in bathrooms. It's only the UK that has these draconian bathroom Reg's, that are a throw back from the past, before the advent of the cure all RCD... lol!!
 
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sedgy34 said:
I'm all for common sense but when the CPS has got to lynch someone for a disaster the common sense approach won't wash (no pun intended) lol
Click to expand...

This is also true for most of what we do in life... We make decisions based on common sense and experience and hope nothing bad happens. We all walk a very fine line by just getting up every morning....
 
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As ive mentioned already, if you are to depart from the reg's you have to take full responsibility for it and be able to argue your corner in court if it all went 'Pete Tong', with re' to dog bath you have to realise not all dogs behave and it would be considered common for a shower / dog struggle meaning water going everywhere, if you made the suggestion to have a open end partition fitted and have a adjacent drying area with socket fitted i would see this as acceptable as although it may not fully comply with 701 you have taken steps to eliminate obvious risks and this coupled with the owner been an instructed person who will be made aware of the issues then a departure from regs may fine, no i haven't heard of a hairdresser or customer been killed but its not an excuse nor a defence to this debate.... but i have heard of hairdressers getting shocks of their worktops because items are wet, ok before RCD's but remember where her/his other hand might be-- on a wet head -- I still dont agree with sockets and appliances been next to a sink thats used with a shower, saying the sockets got RCD cover anyway is a weak argument as it makes it sound like you can ignore the regs just because you have earth leakage protection, ive designed a hair salon electrics with the architect plus clark of works over my shoulder, we ommited all sockets from the unit tops and fitted power poles with a mid circular table top... just offset and a few feet behind the chair, clark of works was happy as it was still a departure from the regs regarding distance but was acceptable as it wasn't considered to be a hazard by its design and use. Saying use common sense is leaving the goals open for mis-interpretation, bad judgements, and lazy practices, the regs are there for guidence but agree they cant cover all situations but you have to tread carefully when departing from them.
 
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Shower in a shop! Do zone regs apply?
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