Main eath bonding

[twist]

My water enters at the front of the house, from the crawl space then skims earth/whatever I keep there and enters the meter at the rear of the house, 15-20m away. If I collared the water pipe at the front for an earth bond it would hardly be accessible. Should I photograph it for the spark who fixes my CU or will he be able to determine suitability through impedance tests?

 

[Octopus]

My water enters at the front of the house, from the crawl space then skims earth/whatever I keep there and enters the meter at the rear of the house, 15-20m away. If I collared the water pipe at the front for an earth bond it would hardly be accessible. Should I photograph it for the spark who fixes my CU or will he be able to determine suitability through impedance tests?

It needs to be accessible.

 

[Redvanman]

You want to connect the earth just after the main stop cock which would need to be accessible any way.
hope I've understood your question

 

[Engineer54]

Eaisest way would be to cut a trap in the floorboard directly above the bonding position. It would then be classed as accessable!!

 

[Stroppy]

Perspex panel, so you don't have all the bother of finding the trap!

 

[twist]

Perspex panel? Under the front door mat? "Aw, Mr Bond, we've been expecting you!"

I think I'll dry line the earth floor and let the inspector/spark crawl along if he wants to see it. The Water Company's cock is at the front, mine is at the rear, after the inlet branches to the upstairs flat. The gas bonding will run a similair course and the gas entry point is similarly buried, although not quite under the floorboards. Just seeing the bonding is no guarantee of a good connection, I don't really understand the significance of it being accessible.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Perspex panel? Under the front door mat? "Aw, Mr Bond, we've been expecting you!"

I think I'll dry line the earth floor and let the inspector/spark crawl along if he wants to see it. The Water Company's cock is at the front, mine is at the rear, after the inlet branches to the upstairs flat. The gas bonding will run a similair course and the gas entry point is similarly buried, although not quite under the floorboards. Just seeing the bonding is no guarantee of a good connection, I don't really understand the significance of it being accessible.

Champion!! mg_smile::thinking::whatchutalkingabout:hanged:

 

[happyhippy68]

Perspex panel? Under the front door mat? "Aw, Mr Bond, we've been expecting you!"

I think I'll dry line the earth floor and let the inspector/spark crawl along if he wants to see it. The Water Company's cock is at the front, mine is at the rear, after the inlet branches to the upstairs flat. The gas bonding will run a similair course and the gas entry point is similarly buried, although not quite under the floorboards. Just seeing the bonding is no guarantee of a good connection, I don't really understand the significance of it being accessible.

The requirement for it to be accessible is to allow for future inspections and verification of continuity. I have seen many bonding clamps that have corroded through or rusted so badly that although it is connected there is no continuity. This would then give rise to the possibility of not completing the fault path during an earth line fault and therefore not operate the protective device for the faulty circuit within the required time. This could lead to a fire or a very dangerous shock for someone.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

The requirement for it to be accessible is to allow for future inspections and verification of continuity. I have seen many bonding clamps that have corroded through or rusted so badly that although it is connected there is no continuity. This would then give rise to the possibility of not completing the fault path during an earth line fault and therefore not operate the protective device for the faulty circuit within the required time. This could lead to a fire or a very dangerous shock for someone.

You've lost me on this one....whats the bonding got to do with fault paths and operating protective devices? Are you suggesting we can rely on bonding to operate a protective device?

 

[Octopus]

Perspex panel? Under the front door mat? "Aw, Mr Bond, we've been expecting you!"

I think I'll dry line the earth floor and let the inspector/spark crawl along if he wants to see it. The Water Company's cock is at the front, mine is at the rear, after the inlet branches to the upstairs flat. The gas bonding will run a similair course and the gas entry point is similarly buried, although not quite under the floorboards. Just seeing the bonding is no guarantee of a good connection, I don't really understand the significance of it being accessible.[/QUOTE]

To many DIYer's this isn't clear either but for those who know, understand and apply the regs its perfectly clear. Accessible means for visual and testing now and in the future.

 

[happyhippy68]

You've lost me on this one....whats the bonding got to do with fault paths and operating protective devices? Are you suggesting we can rely on bonding to operate a protective device?

No I am suggesting that it is possible for a class 1 appliance to be live due to a fault but not operate the protective device until you come along and touch it and something that should be bonded such as a radiator thus giving a fault path to earth. If the fault path + R1 does not cause the protective device to operate within the required time then you have a potentially very bad day! That is the whole point of equipotential or supplemental bonding and testing it for continuity. It is also the reason we have to test it in special locations that are not RCD protected.

 

[44ALLAN]

I always thought earthing tripped the protective device....................oh well.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

No I am suggesting that it is possible for a class 1 appliance to be live due to a fault but not operate the protective device until you come along and touch it and something that should be bonded such as a radiator thus giving a fault path to earth. If the fault path + R1 does not cause the protective device to operate within the required time then you have a potentially very bad day! That is the whole point of equipotential or supplemental bonding and testing it for continuity. It is also the reason we have to test it in special locations that are not RCD protected.

Your logic defeats me I'm afraid. Why should a radiator be bonded?

 

[44ALLAN]

"That is the whole point of equipotential or supplemental bonding and testing it for continuity".

No it isn't !!

Earthing and bonding are completely different beasts and should be treated as such.
If bonding produces parallell paths that a fault current 'might' take, then all well and good.

Earthing is there to clear the 'earth fault'...................not bonding.

Gawd..........................................

 

[Brightspark2]

That is the whole point of equipotential or supplemental bonding and testing it for continuity. It is also the reason we have to test it in special locations that are not RCD protected.

What about so in the event of an earth fault all parts/metal work are brought up to the same potential and thus leaving no potential difference between simultaneous accessible parts...

 

[Geordie Spark]

Your logic defeats me I'm afraid. Why should a radiator be bonded?

For the same reason a metal window frame should be bonded?? :uhoh2:

 

[Engineer54]

I really can't see the big problem here, i've already suggested that you cut a trap in the floorboard above the the bonding connection. This can be screwed back down in place, ...maybe never to be lifted again during your time at the house, ...but it's there ready and waiting if access is ever needed in the future!! lol!!

 

[Geordie Spark]

I really can't see the big problem here, i've already suggested that you cut a trap in the floorboard above the the bonding connection. This can be screwed back down in place, ...maybe never to be lifted again during your time at the house, ...but it's there ready and waiting if access is ever needed in the future!! lol!!

..... or he could secure it shut with lever operated bolts ...... :hanged:

 

[somersetsparks]

Am I missing something here, I think the OP says HIS stop tap is at the back of the house, Would it not be more sensible just to bond it after his stop tap? Rather the under the floor on the water boards (presumably) pipework?

 

[Guest55]

Am I missing something here, I think the OP says HIS stop tap is at the back of the house, Would it not be more sensible just to bond it after his stop tap? Rather the under the floor on the water boards (presumably) pipework?

dont confuse things with clear thinking , its only monday.
;-)

 

[Guest55]

following from somerset.....
if the only accessable point to the water mains is 10 metres away from where it enters the building well just bond it there !
REMOVED the 600mm rule if its a pain.
;-)

 

[somersetsparks]

following from somerset.....
if the only accessable point to the water mains is 10 metres away from where it enters the building well just bond it there !
f*** the 600mm rule if its a pain.
;-)

Aye, I would bond it wherever accessable, However from what I have read the OP says his stop tap and meter is at the back of the property, therefore I would say the proper place to bond would be there, as this is the start of his pipework, the bit under the floor probably is mains pipework as he says it tees of for upstairs flat.

 

[Octopus]

Aye, I would bond it wherever accessable, However from what I have read the OP says his stop tap and meter is at the back of the property, therefore I would say the proper place to bond would be there, as this is the start of his pipework, the bit under the floor probably is mains pipework as he says it tees of for upstairs flat.

If the OP was a spark he could decide but as he isn't maybe he should get one round to confirm what's best and install it with the new cu?

 

[somersetsparks]

If the OP was a spark he could decide but as he isn't maybe he should get one round to confirm what's best and install it with the new cu?

Ahh right shows you how much I read it then before spouting righteous comments on 'the way I would do it"

Cheers Murdoch,
OP - there is probably a spark local to you on here

 

[twist]

Maybe a spark could advise but this is work I can do as I want the basement area for storage I could bond there, close to the outside earth, the electric meter and the gas entry. Or I could run 15m to the rear stop cock and meter, which probably is very much further from being buried in earth. I though earth impedance might have been measured instead of having to visually inspect the condition of the pipe-cable connection. I'd be suspicious of the whole length of cable and what might have happened to it if I couldn't run a test, if I wanted be scientifically sceptical about the situation.

 

[Octopus]

Maybe a spark could advise but this is work I can do as I want the basement area for storage I could bond there, close to the outside earth, the electric meter and the gas entry. Or I could run 15m to the rear stop cock and meter, which probably is very much further from being buried in earth. I though earth impedance might have been measured instead of having to visually inspect the condition of the pipe-cable connection. I'd be suspicious of the whole length of cable and what might have happened to it if I couldn't run a test, if I wanted be scientifically sceptical about the situation.

Some people just don't want to take the point do they.

get a spark to do your CU and bonding at the same time, with a cert and notification then you'll have piece of mind.

 

[twist]

No offence, but I don't take the point. I'm thinking I don't need a new CU and that in any case I can save £100 doing the bonding myself.

What I am unsure of is
(a) what earth system I have, being a big, central, road I'd expect TN-C-S.
(b) how the adequacy of bonding is measured.
(c) why I'd bother.

 

[Plonker 3]

No offence, but I don't take the point. I'm thinking I don't need a new CU and that in any case I can save £100 doing the bonding myself.

What I am unsure of is
(a) what earth system I have, being a big, central, road I'd expect TN-C-S. Why?
(b) how the adequacy of bonding is measured. Look it up in the latest version of BS7671
(c) why I'd bother.

Answered

 

[Octopus]

The OP reminds me of the EU. Ask a question, again and again until you get the answer he wants!

 

[twist]

Just free loading on advice here, BS7671 costs.
The art of free loading on the internet is to attain information from several independent sources, if the agree it is more likely to be correct. If they can reference the material this can be proved. If the standards are not freely available avenues of enquiry slam their door in your face.

If I can elicit more information by refining the original question then I will do that rather than start a new thread. Agree that I am starting to sound pedantic.

 

[Silly Sausage]

You're taking a chance if you take advice (albeit by consensus), from forums, as gospel.
Seeing as at least 50% of it, is opinionated nonsense!
It's good for pointing you in the right direction, but, you need to backup what you 'learn' from definitive sources.

 

[Octopus]

Just free loading on advice here, BS7671 costs.
The art of free loading on the internet is to attain information from several independent sources, if the agree it is more likely to be correct. If they can reference the material this can be proved. If the standards are not freely available avenues of enquiry slam their door in your face.

If I can elicit more information by refining the original question then I will do that rather than start a new thread. Agree that I am starting to sound pedantic.

And you expect us to spoon feed you advice FOC. Well think again.

 

[twist]

Oh, I thought that was the idea of these forums. There are many forums that do. As it happens Part P is much less restrictive this year. Home owners are re-empowered and the economy may grown. Thanks govt. Just when I was starting to worry that maintenance may have to be foregone due to the exorbitant price of sparkies.

Just this thread is not necessarily of practical interest to me and I am attempting to discuss the reasoning behind what you do, as I am sure different sparks have different approaches. I am sorry you don't feel you can condescend to converse further with me.

 

[44ALLAN]

'condescend to converse'......................never a truer word.....................:confused5:

 

[Octopus]

Oh, I thought that was the idea of these forums. There are many forums that do. As it happens Part P is much less restrictive this year. Home owners are re-empowered and the economy may grown. Thanks govt. Just when I was starting to worry that maintenance may have to be foregone due to the exorbitant price of sparkies.

Just this thread is not necessarily of practical interest to me and I am attempting to discuss the reasoning behind what you do, as I am sure different sparks have different approaches. I am sorry you don't feel you can condescend to converse further with me.

You asked for advice and we gave you the information. The fact you chose to ignore it speaks volumes about you, not us.

This forum is for sparkies, not DIY chancers.

 

[twist]

Then I shall leave until I get 'prenticed. I believe you gave some good advice but then began telling me to call a pro. Who'd I'd ring and ask "what does the earth testing procedure consist off". I'd get a reply, or more likely an appointment. Or I might find an answer indexed by Google, on a forum such as this, and save everyone a lot of bother in the future. Answer if you want, but I'm obviously not qualified to be on here.

 

[Guest55]

As it happens Part P is much less restrictive this year. Home owners are re-empowered and the economy may grown. Thanks govt.

* i agree with that point as being a positive step. *

Just when I was starting to worry that maintenance may have to be foregone due to the exorbitant price of sparkies.

* we are one of the cheapest trades around these days , influx of labour has driven down prices , and electrical maintenence on a house rarely costs more than £100 a year on average *

Just this thread is not necessarily of practical interest to me

* we're hardly thrilled either lol *

and I am attempting to discuss the reasoning behind what you do, as I am sure different sparks have different approaches.

* with earth bonding there is little scope for varied interpretation , clearly defined requirements are laid out in our bible *


I am sorry you don't feel you can condescend to converse further with me.

* its nothing personal , we're just a bit tired from arguing with chancers. *

......................
;-)

 

[Geordie Spark]

Just free loading on advice here, BS7671 costs.
The art of free loading on the internet is to attain information from several independent sources, if the agree it is more likely to be correct. If they can reference the material this can be proved. If the standards are not freely available avenues of enquiry slam their door in your face.

If I can elicit more information by refining the original question then I will do that rather than start a new thread. Agree that I am starting to sound pedantic.

No ..... you're starting to sound like a First Class Pratt !!!

 

[twist]

I don't need to come here to get insulted Geordie

 

[Geordie Spark]

I don't need to come here to get insulted Geordie

OK ...... where do you usually go then??