A simple Board change....

[zeroberto]

Morning - just a photo for info to show what's out there (as if most don't already know!!!) & to reiterate the ignorance of some householders.

A 30 year old Bungalow. Original Board with an additional RCD unit put in for a shower & garage. Woman looking to maybe sell so wanted a New Board & Report done. Fine, done a few in this stretch of 80's bungalows, usually decent initial installations so confident it was a nice Friday job.

Went to change a board - took a nice new 5/5 split Wylex (btw bit of a pain, the new NHXL range does not take the NHB breakers). Took the cover off and found what was in the photo. 5 cables in one 30amp, 4 of them 1.5, 4 in another. the 1.5s were brittle, years of overheating I guess.

Turns out that the deceased husband had wired some of the house.

So we went up into the attic to have a look around. First thing, a 6mm, bared ends & still live, coiled up above the kitchen. Into kitchen for a look. No cooker switch. Or gas hob switch. Then we find that 2 of the 1.5s feed the 3 x twin sockets in the kitchen. One of these twins has 4 cables - another 1.5 to feed the hob, and a 2,5 heading off to another twin socket. Take it off. 2 x cables at that, the other one going direct into a Double oven.

So, 2 x 1.5's feed 3 kitchen sockets and Double oven. 30 amp fuse so of course it holds. Cables not in good nick tho. Surprisingly the ins res tests were reasonable, probably down to a single woman not using a huge amount of power in the kitchen.

Obviously can't leave it like that, so ran a 6mm for the cooker via a switch. Short term fix was to run in a 2.5 radial for the 3 twins on a 20 amp trip. Fused outlet (3 amp) for Hob.

The Lights, immersor, shower all ok. But (as it was late Friday by now) only had 6 amp MCB's left, CEF had no XL 16's til Tuesday, so bedroom sockets and TV sockets (turns out apart from a couple of 2.5 radials the house is mainly wired in 1.5) had to be covered by 2 x 6 amp trips, explained that she may have short term overload issues until we changed the MCB's, and that even with 16 amp's she may BUT that is what the cable can take so that's what we have to do. We cannot leave it as it is.

Also told her that the sockets need rewiring but that was for another day and that she should get other quotes for that. Get's round the "inventing work" accusation, have other spark's go in for a look also. IMO rewiring the cooker & kitchen radial wasn't inventing work, was necessary.

Woke up to an email this morning saying that she is very unhappy & is not expecting a bill. Discussed it with friends yesterday and they (they!!) have decided that the work we have done was unneccessary as "there were never any problems with the electrics before". Hoover trips if she has the TV on etc.

What can you say? I'll go back and upgrade the MCB's, I'm about to write to her, nice and calmly, explaining all as I've done above and why we did what we did. Have to say we did try to explain all of this to her at the time but she was "oh that all means nothing to me, just do what you have to do".

Oh well. Not too fussed really, I'm too old to be so, annoyed obviously that I might not get paid for this but happy that I can defend what we did, and that her installation is better than it was before we went.

cheers, Ze

 

[baldelectrician]

Did you give her the 14 day cooling off paperwork (been mentioned here before)?
I always have a small, medium and large consumer unit in the van. I also have a tray of 44 breakers and have all I need.
Then I can put a 1.5 on a (16A or 10A) mcb (if no derating factors)and make it more compliant.

People like this think we are all at it.
I would make sure your paperwork is in line and you send her a cert and info on existing non-compliances in writing as well.

 

[Pete999]

Morning - just a photo for info to show what's out there (as if most don't already know!!!) & to reiterate the ignorance of some householders.

A 30 year old Bungalow. Original Board with an additional RCD unit put in for a shower & garage. Woman looking to maybe sell so wanted a New Board & Report done. Fine, done a few in this stretch of 80's bungalows, usually decent initial installations so confident it was a nice Friday job.

Went to change a board - took a nice new 5/5 split Wylex (btw bit of a pain, the new NHXL range does not take the NHB breakers). Took the cover off and found what was in the photo. 5 cables in one 30amp, 4 of them 1.5, 4 in another. the 1.5s were brittle, years of overheating I guess.

Turns out that the deceased husband had wired some of the house.

So we went up into the attic to have a look around. First thing, a 6mm, bared ends & still live, coiled up above the kitchen. Into kitchen for a look. No cooker switch. Or gas hob switch. Then we find that 2 of the 1.5s feed the 3 x twin sockets in the kitchen. One of these twins has 4 cables - another 1.5 to feed the hob, and a 2,5 heading off to another twin socket. Take it off. 2 x cables at that, the other one going direct into a Double oven.

So, 2 x 1.5's feed 3 kitchen sockets and Double oven. 30 amp fuse so of course it holds. Cables not in good nick tho. Surprisingly the ins res tests were reasonable, probably down to a single woman not using a huge amount of power in the kitchen.

Obviously can't leave it like that, so ran a 6mm for the cooker via a switch. Short term fix was to run in a 2.5 radial for the 3 twins on a 20 amp trip. Fused outlet (3 amp) for Hob.

The Lights, immersor, shower all ok. But (as it was late Friday by now) only had 6 amp MCB's left, CEF had no XL 16's til Tuesday, so bedroom sockets and TV sockets (turns out apart from a couple of 2.5 radials the house is mainly wired in 1.5) had to be covered by 2 x 6 amp trips, explained that she may have short term overload issues until we changed the MCB's, and that even with 16 amp's she may BUT that is what the cable can take so that's what we have to do. We cannot leave it as it is.

Also told her that the sockets need rewiring but that was for another day and that she should get other quotes for that. Get's round the "inventing work" accusation, have other spark's go in for a look also. IMO rewiring the cooker & kitchen radial wasn't inventing work, was necessary.

Woke up to an email this morning saying that she is very unhappy & is not expecting a bill. Discussed it with friends yesterday and they (they!!) have decided that the work we have done was unneccessary as "there were never any problems with the electrics before". Hoover trips if she has the TV on etc.

What can you say? I'll go back and upgrade the MCB's, I'm about to write to her, nice and calmly, explaining all as I've done above and why we did what we did. Have to say we did try to explain all of this to her at the time but she was "oh that all means nothing to me, just do what you have to do".

Oh well. Not too fussed really, I'm too old to be so, annoyed obviously that I might not get paid for this but happy that I can defend what we did, and that her installation is better than it was before we went.

cheers, Ze

View attachment 42939

A better option may have been to persuade the Lady to agree to an EICR prior to agreeing to Swap the CU.
If the installation was as bad as it looks, an EICR would have highlighted many, if not all of the cock ups you found, submit the report and inform the householder that it would be a disadvantage to her to just change the board, you wouldn't have tampered with the installation other than removing covers to carry out the tests, explain to Her that if She felt you were trying it on, then She has the option to get another Electrician in to quote.
You would be in an ideal situation to quote for the remedial work as it was you who had found them, get Paid for the EICR and leave it up to Her, under no circumstances would I have done any works, leave the report with her, for information, explain that just changing the board was a false economy, and that no decent Electrician would just change the board, remember if you did swap the CU then it would be your Moniker on the cert, and any issues with the dodgy wiring would be deemed your responsibility, sorry for the ramble.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

If she is refusing to pay for what you have done then why are you going back to replace MCB's? I know it's very noble of you and you want it to be safe but she is playing you.I would send her the bill for the work done,a separate letter outlining what you have done and why and take her to court if she refuses to pay.I'm sure the Judge would be in your favour if you have it all documented.Don't be taken for a ride by this woman.

 

[westward10]

That consumer unit is older than 30 years old I think you maybe misdating that.

 

[Wilko]

Classic !
For me, any board change has a visit with inspection and a few tests. That way you can let them know gently what's going to be needed.

 

[Octopus]

Did you give a written quote or estimate, highlighting that if faults are found the costs may rise ?

If you don’t you are leaving yourself open ...

 

[JK-Electrical]

I always arrange a home visit for every board change that I'm invited to do so that I can determine what kind of overall condition the installation is in, whether the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate, and whether there is sufficient space to allow a new board to be fitted.

If I were to discover a rat's nest as exhbited in the image that you have posted, the customer would then be offered the opportunity of having an EICR carried-out prior to the board change so that any additional issues can be identified and a schedule of remedial works prepared. If they refuse because of the cost, then I walk. This ensures that I don't get caught in the same trap that has been sprung on you.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

You do wonder with some customers why they even bother getting somebody in, as they always look for a way to avoid paying. I would say though the 14 day cooling off period would not apply to the works carried out as they could be seen as emergency works to avoid serious danger/risk as you could have argued it was a significant fire risk. Can not see her putting up a fight if you write a carefully worded letter seeking payment. If she refuses just serve a letter before action via small claims letter on her giving her 14 days to pay or you will take further action, it generally motivates folks to get the cheque book out.
Prior to any board change the cover comes off and i check cables and breakers for matched suitability, then check end to ends on the RFC's and do IR tests either separately or a system as a whole dependant on whats there. the usual Ze, checking of tails and bonding etc... if all come back okay then I move to doing the change. It doesn't take long and is more than worth the time taken.
Have learnt through experience already that if you skip these tests then you can almost guarantee something will come up at the end...

 

[zeroberto]

Thanks for the well reasoned comments guys, can't argue with any of them.
Yes, Board is older than 30 years, I still think the 70's was 3o years ago.
May have overstated the non payment (hope so anyway) - pretty sure I'll get paid for the Board, maybe not the remedials, still bad enough tho.
Should absolutely have done a pre check. Tbh I usually at least take the cover of the Board, after nearly 40 years in the trade I like to think you get a pretty good idea of the installation from the DB. Why didn't I - probably complacency. Neat house, well decorated, looked well maintained, last 12 or so Board changes we've done went like a dream, no issues.
I will go back and change the MCB's. Then issue the Cert & 2 x invoices, 1 for the initial quote, 1 for the remedials, and see how it goes. It's professional pride. The 16 amp trip will most likely run what she needs on those sockets. If we had fitted them at the time this wouldn't have come up. I too have a huge box with fuses/trips but these new Wylex boards can only take the NHXL MCB's, the NHXB's wont fit. (I keep saying new, there new to us here anyway). This is the first of those I've fitted so no stock of MCB's as yet. Local CEF branch not too happy either, have over a hundred old style RCBO's in stock which won't fit the new boards.
And it was a Friday job too, how often does that happen?

Have sent a very pleasant email to her, attached the photo asking her to show it to her "friends" so they can see why there are problems. No answer as yet.

One good thing is it's a reboot, isn't it, next DB request will get a thorough pre check first.

Anyway, thanks for the comments guys. Ze

 

[buzzlightyear]

I agree with some of the lads where you should have done a EICR before hand ,and explained to the customer on a email or letter.
what work needs doing before hand .so she can see what work to be carried out .
but now you have done the work you have not given the amount of time to think about it .weather she is selling it or not.

 

[Briggs69]

Eicr then would have slapped her with a danger certificate for the really bad stuff.they sign and date it and put the time in.if they get killed 5min later ur in the clear u told them of the dangers and they have agreed to them.we have all done stuff thought and hindsight is a great thing.

 

[Octopus]

Eicr then would have slapped her with a danger certificate for the really bad stuff.they sign and date it and put the time in.if they get killed 5min later ur in the clear u told them of the dangers and they have agreed to them.we have all done stuff thought and hindsight is a great thing.

Why?

Like to see the justification for that.

 

[Briggs69]

So are u just going to go in fix the work without pointing out the dangers and be In the same situation as the poor guy who is now no getin paid.she doesn’t have to get u to fix it she can tell u to get lost.what u gonna do when u get lost and the house goes on fire 5min later?

 

[Octopus]

So are u just going to go in fix the work without pointing out the dangers and be In the same situation as the poor guy who is now no get in paid.she doesn’t have to get u to fix it she can tell u to get lost.what u gonna do when u get lost and the house goes on fire 5 min later?

The "issues" have been like that for years, if not decades .......... I don't see anything that would warrant a C1 on an EICR or a "danger notice"

 

[Briggs69]

I ok mate no getin into an a Barney online.good luck.

 

[Briggs69]

I ok mate no getin into an a Barney online.good luck.

 

[Octopus]

I ok mate no getin into an a Barney online.good luck.

Not getting into a barney ............... just can't see how any of the "issues" outlined would warrant a danger notice, thats all

 

[buzzlightyear]

So are u just going to go in fix the work without pointing out the dangers and be In the same situation as the poor guy who is now no getin paid.she doesn’t have to get u to fix it she can tell u to get lost.what u gonna do when u get lost and the house goes on fire 5min later?

please could you tell me is there any thing wrong ,before my house burns down.

 

[Squid]

She looked after the house the husband the electric, plumbing etc god knows what other horrors are lurking behind the walls and floors, just because the place hasn't burnt down or someone has been electrocuted doesn't mean it its all "fine".

She's not trying it on its just her "friends" are all experts............ I'd hate to be a domestic in this day and age with customers having access to Youtube and forums......