Are all EV charge point installers this bad?

[loz2754]

Try chapter 44 Protection against voltage disturbances and electromagnetic disturbances.

What do you think I just copied and pasted from?

 

[mainline]

What do you think I just copied and pasted from?

Page 5

Chapter 44 Protection against voltage disturbances and electromagnetic disturbances

Section 443, which deals with protection against overvoltages of atmospheric origin or due to switching, has been redrafted.

The AQ criteria (conditions of external influence for lightning) for determining if protection against transient overvoltages is needed are no longer included in BS 7671. Instead, protection against transient overvoltages has to be provided where the consequence caused by overvoltage (see Regulation 443.4)

(a) results in serious injury to, or loss of, human life, or
(b) results in interruption of public services/or damage to and cultural heritage, or
(c) results in interruption of commercial or industrial activity, or
(d) affects a large number of co-located individuals.

For all other cases, a risk assessment has to be performed in order to determine if protection against transient overvoltage is required.

There is an exception not to provide protection for single dwelling units in certain situations.

 

[loz2754]

Page 5

Chapter 44 Protection against voltage disturbances and electromagnetic disturbances

Section 443, which deals with protection against overvoltages of atmospheric origin or due to switching, has been redrafted.

The AQ criteria (conditions of external influence for lightning) for determining if protection against transient overvoltages is needed are no longer included in BS 7671. Instead, protection against transient overvoltages has to be provided where the consequence caused by overvoltage (see Regulation 443.4)

(a) results in serious injury to, or loss of, human life, or
(b) results in interruption of public services/or damage to and cultural heritage, or
(c) results in interruption of commercial or industrial activity, or
(d) affects a large number of co-located individuals.

For all other cases, a risk assessment has to be performed in order to determine if protection against transient overvoltage is required.

There is an exception not to provide protection for single dwelling units in certain situations.

Ah, I see where you're coming from.
I believe that section of page 5 is actually an error and should have been removed or reworded, as it is exactly the same as it is in the blue book. It contradicts what is actually said in section 443. It's only an introduction to BS7671:2018, and you'll notice the whole introduction is exactly the same as it is in the blue book, and makes no reference to the changes brought in with Amendment 2.

Also the On Site Guide pages 43 and 44 are in error.

 

[Mike Johnson]

But you can't eliminate the chance of voltage surges, so a risk assessment is the thing to do.

If the hazard analysis identifies a voltage surge as being possible? (with the main input isolated?) Then the next stage is the risk assessment.

 

[loz2754]

If the hazard analysis identifies a voltage surge as being possible? (with the main input isolated?) Then the next stage is the risk assessment.

You seem to have a thing about this Mike!
I'm afraid I have to disagree with your treating the hazard analysis as a precursor to a risk assessment.
According to the steps outlined in many guides to risk assessment, the hazard analysis is the first step of the risk assessment process and it's therefore a part of the risk assessment, not a separate process.
May be just semantics, as the end result is the same.
An example downloaded from HSE:

 

[Mike Johnson]

The reason the hazard analysis is a precursor to the risk assessment is if the analysis is able to eliminate the hazard the risk assessment is not needed.

 

[catdog1121]

As this has been dragged back up I will give an update..

Pod point eventually agreed to fit an SPD, I provided a 40A mcb in consumer unit, to a small 4way consumer unit with a double pole 32A RCBO with an SPD next to it, during install I was present and had to point out that the electrician had wired the SPD the wrong way round, I needed to then provide him with 6mm WAGO connectors as he cut the cables to short..

All good, but then no certificate, I chased and was sent the EIC, when I asked for the building regs certificate they said they would resend it, nothing came so I chased again and was told nothing to do with them and I needed to go to my local authority... I contacted NICEIC who were really good and checked, they had raised two building regs certificates so they deleted one and sent me a copy of the other...

Several months on I contact WPD to ask if they have sent paperwork for unlooping, nothing sent, I chase and ask them to send, after months of checking with WPD last month I finally got annoyed escalated it to pod point and they admitted they had not sent it as some MPAN number was wrong, I guess they were just going to do nothing with this even though they had a duty to inform WPD of the looped supply... Eventually that was sorted and I got a call from WPD within a week and they are going to extend the cable in the street and dig up my garden to run a new 3 phase supply to just outside the front door where they hope to intercept the loop cable, splicing the new cable on to that and terminating the other end coming from the neighbour so they dont need to be disturbed..

As for SPD's, well I went to many seminars and got told from the horses mouth by the guy involved in writing the regs from the IET, if you install a new circuit you must fit an SPD unless customer refuses, they cannot refuse on certain circuits... Move on to my NAPIT assessment and I get told an SPD is only needed if you change a consumer unit, if you are adding a new circuit to an existing consumer unit then its not needed, this was completely contradictory to what NAPIT confirmed with me when dealing with the EV charger..

So it seems like the powers that be can't decide, from a personal note with everyone doing their own electrics or getting dodgy electricians coming in I am putting electrical work on the back burner and going back into IT as a contractor for a bit as the work has dried up well unless you want to sign off some DIY'rs bodge job, I want to do a decent job but nobody wants to pay for it or appreciate it, I think ill still keep my insurance but will be dropping NAPIT as the cost just keeps going up and I don't get enough work that requires certification to warrant keeping it especially as ill mainly be doing IT contracting.. I guess the cost of living is hitting everyone so house building has stopped, nobody is getting extensions etc..

 

[nicebutdim]

True, but I think most of this discussion has been around the previous guidelines/regs.

That's what I'd been trying to ascertain as the thread has been resurrected long since introduction of AM2, with statements being made that no longer apply.

I believe it's important that this distinction is made clear as, from other threads, it sould seem as though the member who resurrected the thread is (at the very least) keen to advise the electrician rewiring their property. It would be remiss of us to allow someone to labour under the misapprehension that a previous version of BS7671 is still relevant on this subject and to press their electrician toward a non-compliant installation.

 

[nicebutdim]

Try chapter 44 Protection against voltage disturbances and electromagnetic disturbances.

@loz2754 just quoted 443.4.1 from Chapter 44.

Oddly enough 3.7.2.1 of the new OSG quotes the very same regulation verbatim and then goes on to expand upon it with further advice that I can not find within the BB(rown)B.

Advice from OSG appears to deviate slightly from BBB, but the distinction is quite significant.

 

[nicebutdim]

The reason the hazard analysis is a precursor to the risk assessment is if the analysis is able to eliminate the hazard the risk assessment is not needed.

In the case of transient voltages due to the effects of indirect lightning strikes, how would one go about arguing that no hazard exists or eliminating the hazard entirely, without installing surge protection?

 

[Midwest]

I suppose like all proof reading of publications, errors don't always get picked up. Seem to recall, has happened previously with BS7671.

 

[nicebutdim]

I suppose like all proof reading of publications, errors don't always get picked up. Seem to recall, has happened previously with BS7671.

The additional information is lengthier than the regulation quoted before it. Worth looking at if you have both books to hand.

I'd quote it, but it's a lot to type.

 

[loz2754]

@loz2754 just quoted 443.4.1 from Chapter 44.

Oddly enough 3.7.2.1 of the new OSG quotes the very same regulation verbatim and then goes on to expand upon it with further advice that I can not find within the BB(rown)B.

Advice from OSG appears to deviate slightly from BBB, but the distinction is quite significant.

It's an error, which I pointed out to the NICEIC instructor on my Amendment 2 course. He wasn't aware of it, but agreed that the OSG had retained a whole section that should have been deleted.

 

[mainline]

@loz2754 just quoted 443.4.1 from Chapter 44.

Post #62

 

[Mike Johnson]

The reason the hazard analysis is a precursor to the risk assessment is if the analysis is able to eliminate the hazard the risk assessment is not needed.

In the case of transient voltages due to the effects of indirect lightning strikes, how would one go about arguing that no hazard exists or eliminating the hazard entirely, without installing surge protection?

Don't think of your individual situation think more global, think hazard first, identify and eliminate if possible, if not then complete a risk assessment.

 

[nicebutdim]

Don't think of your individual situation think more global, think hazard first, identify and eliminate if possible, if not then complete a risk assessment.

I get where you're coming from, but was (not unreasonably) referring specifically to the situation in this thread.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I was just trying to clarify for those that don't know that a Hazard Analysis is separate from the Risk Assessment and is carried out first with the main aim to eliminate the Hazard.

 

[nicebutdim]

I was just trying to clarify for those that don't know that a Hazard Analysis is separate from the Risk Assessment and is carried out first with the main aim to eliminate the Hazard.

Which is the ideal (if infrequent) situation.

 

[mainline]

 

[DPG]

Process:
Step 1. Stop dicking about
Step 2. Spend £25 extra for an SPD